Welcome And The Big Surprise

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean history and culture, hosted by me, Dr. Alexandria Miller. Strictly Facts teaches the history, politics, and activism of the Caribbean and connects these themes to contemporary music and popular culture. Hello, hello everyone, Wagwan Pamata Guan, and welcome back to another episode of Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean history and culture, where we explore the stories and the sounds and cultural connections that shape the Caribbean and its global diaspora. When most people think of Jamaican music, genres like reggae and dancehall, of course, come to the fore, but also a few others for our seasoned listeners out there, ska, mental, the list could continue. But I think when one thinks of Jamaican music, country music doesn't often immediately come to mind. They often imagine country in terms of the American South and cowboy hats and maybe Nashville, things like that, right? And at first glance, these things might seem to be entirely different musical worlds, but today's conversation really invites us to reconsider that assumption. For generations, country music has occupied a surprisingly prominent place in black music on a whole, which we'll get to a little bit, but especially of Jamaican music per our conversation today. From Jim Reeves to Skeeter Davis playing in Jamaican radio stations, to Bob Marley recording country-inspired songs, to reggae artists covering country classics and dancehall DJs adopting the names of Western outlaws, the connections run far deeper than many people realize. Yet this story is about more than just musical influence. It's a story about migration and media, about storytelling and memory, about the ways black communities across the Americas have long borrowed, remixed, transformed, and you know, all together, put everything together as we do so well, right? Um each other's cultural traditions. It's also challenging us to really rethink country music itself, not as a genre confined to one's place or one people, but as a part of a much broader history of black diasporic cultural exchange. And so today we're exploring this surprising and fascinating, and perhaps maybe for some listeners, not so surprising relationship between Jamaican music and country music and what it can teach us about culture, identity, and the interconnected histories of the Black Atlantic.

Meet Jamal Kadar’s Story

SPEAKER_00 2:36

And so joining us today for this amazing conversation is writer, broadcaster, DJ, I could name all of your CV, perhaps Jamal, Jamal Kadar, also the host of Reimagining Country on NTS Radio, whose expertise has really enabled us globally to reconsider black diaspora connections to country music. So again, Jamal, thank you so much for being here. Let our listeners know a little bit more about yourself, where in the region you want to big up, because I know you have to give up your shout-outs and everything. Um, and of course, what also inspired your passions for music, broadcasting, and of course, country music.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Thank you so much uh for having me. Um and yeah, such a lovely intro. Also, as I was listening, I was just thinking I yeah, do my own radio show, but uh sometimes I'm invited onto other things, and um I I feel so seen on that intro. A lot of the times I'll uh arrive someone and they'll be like, tell us about uh you know black American country history. I'm like, yes, I can do that, but that's not that's not entirely uh my thing. So it's great to be in that in the right place, talking to the right person and excited for this conversation. Yeah, so I'm Jamal Kadar. I um yeah I'm a big country fan and I I have a show called Remaged Country on NTS, as you said, and I also write and research about country and its global connections all over. So my background is that um I grew up in the UK and also in the Netherlands. So I grew up in in Europe, but my mom is Jamaican and my dad's from Sierra Leone, West Africa, and my Jamaican connection is sort of uh, you know, through the lens of Windrush. So my grandparents, you know, came over to the to the UK in the 19 late 50s. I think my mom was the first of her siblings to be born in the UK. But my grandmother moved back to Montego Bay, who shout out, in uh, I think maybe in the 90s. Um, and so I went back there a lot. But yeah, really my my connection to Jamaica is is through that kind of wind rush lens, through, you know, stories from my uncles and aunts, uh, as well as the, of course, uh, you know, occasional trip to to Montego Bay and and and other places around around the island to visit family. But that's important for what comes next. Um my parents were both fans of country music. So they had a really diverse uh you know eclectic collection of music. There was a lot of uh, you know, West African stuff in there, a lot of quote unquote world music in there, um, a lot of uh Jamaican music too, all kinds of American music, but at the core of it was country and and Western and Americana stuff. And so I grew up listening to the music, um, not really paying that much attention to you know the history of it or why they might appreciate it. And um, but it always sounded right to me. And then I came back to it later in life. That's in a nutshell my my story.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Thank you. Thank you for sharing, and of course, again, thank you for being here.

How Country Reached Jamaican Ears

SPEAKER_00 5:28

For our listeners who are unaware of maybe these historical connections between Jamaica, um Jamaican music, and country at large, I do initially sort of want to paint that for those who are tuning in because I think they're more connected than we think. Um, but you know, I don't think based off maybe the imagery of country, and which of course we're gonna get into more per this conversation, these things don't immediately come to mind, right? And so I'm specifically thinking about sort of on a different parallel of how you were talking about your grandparents' migration to the UK, right? Similar migrations, of course, um occurred particularly on the US side. I'm specifically thinking, you know, 40s and 50s were really instrumental in terms of Jamaican radio. Um, Radio Jamaica rediffusion, I think, is one of those really important um radio stations that brought a lot of this music to the island, right? Playing the um music of people like Johnny Cash, right? Of Patsy Klein, etc. Um, and so you have this, of course, transnational dialogue just based on radio itself. Um, of course, you have Western films, which I'm sure we can riff on for quite some time, right? And then you, of course, have, you know, very similar to your grandparents, we have people who are moving and engaging in all types of whether they're moving for good, whether they're moving seasonally. Um, I think farm work, especially because that farm work program has always been very important to the connections between Jamaica and, you know, other Caribbean people and the global north. And so, you know, of course, Jamaicans traveling to the US South to work as farm workers, etc. These are to me all a sort of like a giant melting pot, right, of ways that um country music begins to engage with the Caribbean and you know, sort of circulate so that we can eventually see what what we're talking about, right? And so are there any others that really stand out for you as ways that you know country music begins to get circulated within the Caribbean?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think you you hit all of the big ones. And so my my experience with this is um I wasn't really thinking about any of of that to begin with. So I'm a cultural researcher day to day. Um, but I yeah, I'm a big music fan and I and I love uh radio and and and podcasting and stuff like that as well. But uh at some point I started to I think as many people do when they when they get back into country music, you you reach a certain point in your life where you start thinking about you know the past and you know when you're about to become a parent, maybe other things like that, you know, these different phases of your life. What I like to think of as circle moments where suddenly country music sort of really makes sense, the themes of country music really sort of hit and make sense. And I reached that point in my life and I started looking back at you know the music I would listen to as a kid and the music my parents loved and just thought about you know all these country songs. My my mom was really into Patsy Klein, Jim Reeves, like really the sort of like swaying, sentimental, you know, heart-wrenching ballad stuff. Um, and then my dad was kind of more into, you know, a little more sort of like country folk or country rock type stuff, like the Eagles, you know, Crosby Stills and Ash and Young. But he also he also really liked uh you know, like Dolly Parton, some of the classic 70 storytellers, that type of thing. But yeah, I noticed this country thread, and I ended up really going down the path of country music's kind of connections historically and um you know back and forth with with West Africa. But a big way in for me was on my mom's side through Jamaica music. And I yeah, I sort of talked to my mom about it, talked to my uncles and aunts, and worked my way backwards to my grandparents. Neither are around anymore, but at the time I my grandmother was still around um and talked to her about her love of the music and basically started to organically come across all those things you mentioned um just in their personal histories. You know, for example, on my grandmother's side, she talked about Jim Reeves a lot and um hearing Jim Reeves on the radio and just being blown away by like the deep baritone voice and um and some of the Christian and kind of moral themes of the music really connected with her, but also then that music hitting home even more when she moved to the UK and missed Jamaica. And you know, there's all these themes in the music about the question of home and what home is and missing somewhere and you know, migration, and um, you know, the music started to make even more sense to her and and and it just followed down the the generations. And so I sort of work my way backwards to that stuff. But absolutely, I think the big one for me is definitely um rediffusion radio. I think that's when you get that kind of Nashville ballad sound coming into country music and reaching Jamaica. And when I think about Jamaicans and the country music that they love, I think about those really sentimental, like schmaltzi type songs that that really live on. And so I think that was that was a major one.

Cowboy Images And Rude Boy Mythos

SPEAKER_01 10:32

But yeah, you could you go back uh to to to Western films, but even earlier. So, you know, the the place I like to start is is thinking about Jamaican music um and culture being sort of part of the DNA of country music before it even becomes country music, right? Like you could talk about the banjo and its path from Africa to the to the Caribbean and then um up to America and taking that path. And so there's that connection. There's also you know, mentor music, you know, sort of uh indigenous hybrid uh Jamaican music, if you if you want to call it that, having similar sort of instrumentation to to some country in Western um as well. So so really there's that like early story as country music's being formed, or before it's even really formed in the US, before he even has that name in the US, there's that connection. But yeah, it happens in earnest with, as you as you pointed out, sort of 1950s with with cowboy films, with with Western films. And you see this in many places in country music global history. Um, that was really the first way, you know, even before the music arrived, the imagery of the cowboy um really struck a chord with people. And and it makes sense. It's people at a time where there's many people living in rural areas or just moving from rural areas to urban areas and not seeing themselves on screen or you know, images of themselves very much, and suddenly you have this, you know, powerful image of this rural cowboy on screen really resonates with people. And then once you get the songs alongside that and the guitar, which was hugely popular at the time and really taking off, um, it just really resonates with people. I think the other thing there in terms of the cowboy when it comes to Jamaican culture is really the outlaw, it's that aspect of it. And I've seen this in other places in in Southern and West Africa as well. But the cowboy, interestingly, even though that's kind of you know very American, imperial kind of image and you know, American power or whatever, it really resonates with people who are, you know, especially young men who are um feeling restricted or living in oppressive circumstances, right? Because you have this underdog who is roaming freely on the land, who is uh living outside of the system, who is always winning the battles, who, you know, gets all the women, who, you know, all these things. Um, and that really connects with um, you know, for example, you British colonize Southern Africa, and there's a certain sort of like masculinity and imagery of the cowboy that just really resonates in those kinds of circumstances. And I think to an extent, a similar thing happened in Jamaica, and you get, you know, sort of the way that the outlaw uh figure uh cowboy imagery becomes part of rude boy culture and kind of, you know, at least visually, you know, or character-wise, becomes part of that. Um, I've been talking for a while now, but I always think about uh The Harder They Come as one of the main sort of connections there, you know, in a way that that could be looked at as almost like a singing cowboy film where there's sort of some like um thematic overlaps there. Um but yeah, I'll I'll I'll leave it there and we can talk about it.

Why The Themes Hit So Hard

SPEAKER_00 13:37

No, of course. I mean, you perfectly brought me to sort of my next question because I think that outlaw figure is on one hand such a staple part of Jamaican music culture, right? And from like maybe an academic perspective, because I'm that's my professional bag, right? Um, I even thought of Garth White's um sort of really like standout article, Rudy O'Rudy, in which he's doing exactly as um you were talking about, right? Sort of historicizing the rude boy or Rudy figure in terms of Jamaican um sort of like that early um post-independence moment, really sort of characterizing black masculinity in Jamaica at that point. Um, these figures of rude boys as really being multidimensional because they're not just quote unquote these, you know, bad figures that are bringing down the post-independence, you know, image that Jamaica's trying to create, but they're these young men who are dealing with the aftermath impact of colonization, of neocolonialism, etc. Right. Um, but I think that also to me really underscores the importance of the various themes that you were also showcasing in terms of country music, right? Whether that be morality, whether that be um survival, spirituality. And so for you, how do you think those different themes show up within country music and then thus, you know, were really impactful in the ways that Jamaicans adopted and really saw themselves through a genre that doesn't quote unquote look like us?

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yes, yeah, yeah. Um, there are quite a few sort of overlapping themes. I mean, before we get into those ones, I think one that isn't as often talked about, but I think was a major one, is just the sort of rural self-recognition. You know, if you think about country music was also coming into Jamaica at a time or really having an impact at a time where, as you said, that post-independence moment, where people are starting to form a voice and where local music themes are starting to blossom a bit. So it's coming in that gestational period. And um, I think about the sort of like pre-reggae decade or or moment, and I and I think country music was uh was important there and something that a lot of those, you know, we don't talk about as much, but uh kind of reggae pioneers, something about them was a lot of them came up from you know up country and saw themselves as as country people. Um and so I think just some of those, you know, the themes of uh the land and daily rhythms of rural life and you know religion just resonated really strongly, and also the extent to which the future was very urban and you know, painted as very urban, that there wasn't as much space for for someone from the country. And so I think it was that was a really just sort of important theme as well. But the things that I've seen also in my family, I think that country music in is in lots of ways is is struggle music. It's you know, it's good stories about people at the bottom who are trying to sort of find their way. And uh even if a lot of country songs, if you think about some of the things we were talking about earlier, like the 60s uh stuff, like even Jin Reeves, Pet Klein, et cetera, even though that's about heartache and loss and you know, those types of things, it's really formed in hard living. It's really formed in poverty, it's really that sort of like coal miner's daughter aspect to it. And I remember talking to my uncles a lot about, you know, what is it my grandparents, their parents, loved about country music? What is it that really resonated with them? And, you know, they would make these kind of like big leaps, but uh what they were getting at, and they were like, this is country comes from the blues, country comes from slavery in a way. And um, they've talked about like when you think about my grandmother, you know, singing these like very sad songs or humming them as she moves around the house, and you know, just kind of going about her day-to-day and just sort of like kind of swaying and humming as she works. So they're like, that's that connection. That's that sort of like um, you know, going way, way back, thinking about slavery, thinking about oppression, and that's what the music kind of comes from. And so spiritually, you're sort of like in the in the melancholy register of country music, that's a connection that I think that is important. But yeah, you talked about uh yeah, morality and and and religion and things like that. I I guess if you think about the cowboy films and and cowboy movies and some of the songs and stuff, there's lots of sort of clear themes around um vengeance, redemption, um, you know, things that feed into, in a way, into that sort of like uh, you know, church-going culture that already prized that in some sort of way. And so I think those sort of stories that are coming out of it, of people coming out of hard conditions of hard times and finding their way, or people being sort of looked down upon and then finding their way back, I think come through quite clearly in in country music. And yeah, we can go on to talk about themes of home and the question of home and migration and um sort of spirituality and the overlapping themes there. There's connections between, you know, Christianity, uh, country music, uh, kind of Rastafari views and country music as well, and you know, ideas of home. So there's there's lots of that stuff there as

Covers As Cultural Conversation

SPEAKER_01 18:50

well.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

You bring me really earnestly to my next question, and that's the sort of significance of all of these exchanges that are actually occurring, you know, beyond just, you know, Jamaicans listening to country music via radio, etc. We then see this cover culture that begins to adopt, right? And Jamaicans aren't new to cover, it's not like we've only covered country music because, you know, everybody loves to say like Celine Dion is Jamaican on the low and you know, all the ways that we love various types of genres, right? But I I'm thinking specifically here, you know, Bob Marley's cover of One Cup of Coffee or, you know, Scatolites have a few songs that are, you know, originally country music songs um that they recorded covers of. And then of course the reverse is also true. I believe like in the 90s or early 2000s, Johnny Cash recorded his own cover of like Bob Marley's redemption song and things to that nature. And so what do you sort of make of these exchanges, especially as on one hand, right, um, Jamaican artists making them their own culturally and emotionally, but also seeing our influence on musics of the global north?

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah. As you said, it's not just country music. There's all kinds of Jamaican music that comes out of this pipeline of covering things and making them their own and and mixing things. That is in lots of ways a story of Jamaican music. But yeah, country, country was the big one. And it starts out with, you know, that arc of maybe more borrowing to begin with, to something that becomes more sort of conscious, to this like two-way exchange, and and that happens, as you said, uh 2000s and later in the music as well. So I think of even like um Willie Nelson and and Toots, I think they like had two collaborations. I think first of Willie Nelson was on a was on the reggae record with Toots and the Maytales, and then eventually Toots went on to uh a Willie Nelson record, I I think, or maybe the other way around. But it becomes this very like conscious like kinship between reggae and country that has formed over time, um, but but starts much earlier with those covers. There's yeah, there's this 2000s, almost like late 2010 stuff as well. So there really is this kind of long history of this exchange. Well, there's the more recent like reggae loves country uh kind of dance hall thing, which is like lots of major dance ballers covering country songs, some great collaborations on there as well. Uh the opening track California is crazy. Um, there's that kind of stuff, and then um go back to like the 70s, and you get like a children records doing, I think they were called the reggae country cover box set, and it was also this like clear collaboration between the two, and and the music just seems to go so well together as well. But what I make of all of that, what I see in all of that, is that you know, covers doesn't quite cover the term. Um, you know, Jamaican artists were from the beginning making this their own music, and later on, reggae artists very much so. They're kind of Jamaicanizing the music, and I see this kind of like clear relationship, and and I think what the relationship um for me also shows, and this bigger aspect to it, is that I think about Like America and America's role in the world, especially right now, and you know, the sort of nature of American power and soft power. And I think if I zoom out, I look at the the this kind of like country Jamaica story, and I see the way that America sort of like for lots of countries gives them the or exports this like software, this this this you know stuff, this cultural stuff that the people take in. But I think the Jamaican story and this one shows that from the very beginning, that stuff is just um just things to be borrowed and reinvented. It's just materials to be made your own, you know, things to be to be rewritten. And that's very much the case and and and shows that over time it can form a an even deeper relationship and Jamaican music can influence country music, and it's not just you know having stuff pushed down on you and remixing it, it's also pushing stuff um back out there. So um I think when I look at that exchange, I see I see this long and deep history and and this kind of kinship between Jamaican music and and American country, but I also see this bigger story of like, you know, let's rethink what America, American cultural power is doing in the world and what people are doing with it and how long that's been taking place. Um so that's the way I look at it. But but I I I love, you know, some of that music. I love some of those kind of crossovers and those like knowing nods between Jamaican music and country music because yeah, there's so many good examples.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

We will get to the examples in

Dancehall’s Outlaw References

SPEAKER_00 23:28

a moment. Before we get there, you mentioned dance hall, right? And so we've been sort of mostly talking about the connections in the reggae sort of um sort of golden era of reggae, if you will. But country then, you know, continues ever present, right? And also continuing to influence uh the peak of dance hall generations, you know, they always say there's nothing like 90s dance hall, um, which is sort of what inspired uh this conversation. I'll get there momentarily, but I think, you know, particularly for when we're thinking about this sort of like badman slash um, you know, cowboy anti-hero ethos, right? Um that is very, I think, sort of central to our dancehall generation, um, thinking about ways that, you know, names like Clint Eastwood, like Josie Wales, right, become integral into our culture, whether that's, you know, artist stage names or sort of making references. And so how do you sort of make out the relationships between these sort of later generations um and maybe how that sort of differed from the maybe like 60s, 70s period?

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yeah, definitely. When I think of the 60s, 70s period, I still see it as sort of something that's um a story about how people can um use imported sounds to explore their own identities. Like that's the story I see when I think of the the sort of pre-reggae or yeah, reggae golden age, as you said, moment or era. When I think about dance hall and I think about later generations, it seems to me that it's um there's always a little bit of kind of like some kind of commercial story there. It's country music, there's always some some Nashville money and some some you know um marketing stuff going on as well, and sometimes from the artists too. People are people have always used country that way to to make an interesting story. But I I see it more as something that's very much part of Jamaican music and culture by that point. But the dance hall area, it's not really it's not borrowing anymore. They're they're referencing um Jamaican music, and it's just it's just another sort of dialect of Jamaican music by that point, you know, like a country thing to lean into. Um and it can manifest in that sort of country and western way, in that cowboy way, and I think that's the long-running theme, but also again in that sort of sentimental music and and smaltiness. And there's some some really um interesting examples. I don't know if you know um Beanie Man's Ain't Gonna Figure It Out Yet. Yeah, and which I think is an Alanis Mar set cover, but done in this like extremely country way, like with a full band, um, you know, fiddle, fiddles and everything, like a full string band um type arrangement. And that one really stands out as someone reaching back into their own past and and wanting to do something they've always wanted to do. Again, there's always a little bit of marketing there, but it it feels like uh, you know, Beanie Man looking back and being like, okay, I want to, I want to touch on, you know, this aspect of Jamaican music, I want to touch on this aspect of my childhood that I've always sort of kind of longed for and to play that song. So it feels there a little bit less like really reaching out and grabbing something, and a little bit more like um, you know, tapping into a vein of of tradition, really, of Jamaican tradition and and history by that point. Um, yeah, and there's there's lots of good examples. Lady Saul's Give Me a Reason, um, or give me the reason is a beautiful song. I would play a lot on the radio. Um, yeah, lots of other examples like that. But yeah, it really feels at that point like it's it's part of tradition, part of sort of the the furniture of of Jamaican uh culture and music by that

Race Myths And Global Country

SPEAKER_01 27:07

point.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Certainly, certainly. Um we've been talking sort of about it and around it in a way, but I do sort of want us to sit with the fact that country music today, and you know, we can also sort of challenge this in a sense, especially with Beyonce's recent album, Cowboy Carter, and you know, the growth of artists like Shabuzi, you know, they're black artists, right? In terms of their work within country music. But I think this idea that I think potentially for a long time, a lot of people have had the misconceptions of country, right? Which you've already sort of highlighted for us are incorrect, right? That country really comes out of blues, which comes out of the music of enslaved people. But we've had these sort of misconceptions about what or who, right, is quote unquote allowed to do country music, um, really overlooking the deep black roots of that, of the genre. And so sort of how does looking at Jamaica's long sort of love affair, if you will, with country really complicate these dominant ideas about the genre?

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Yeah, I think it does it in in two ways. I think it it it complicates more than one story. It complicates the story of race in country music, definitely. But it also, and we've been talking around this a bit, but like complicates the idea of country music as as purely American as well, in the sense of North America, United States of America. And I think that's that's also a really important story as well. So I think we've we've been opening, as you, as you say, we've been opening up. It's not gonna surprise anyone at this point to talk about country music's history as being uh more diverse, you know, uh and more complex than than has long been painted by country music itself. Or it's not gonna surprise anyone too much to talk about country music's black roots at this point, but this feeds into that conversation. Certainly, we talked about the banjo earlier and you know, the the journey of the banjo which shaped country music. And so this is another sort of thread in the black roots of country music. You can kind of look back and you know, trace it back down to to the Caribbean as well. Um, and so I think it forms part of that conversation. And certainly there's this broader point of like, oh, there's you know, there's black people everywhere that love country music. I think it's gonna, it's gonna surprise people and and and be striking in that way. But I think for me, what I've noticed recently is that even as as big of an example as Beyoncé, and we have these sort of like big mainstream media narratives about the complex, you know, black history, you know, Mexican history, et cetera, of country music, um, we're still very unwilling to let go of the idea that it's not all taking place within the confines of North American borders. Uh, and that that's not still, you know, even if we're challenging the roots of it, it's still seen as this inherently, you know, narrowly seen sort of American music form, art form. And that's that's just also, you know, not true and hasn't been true for so long. From the very beginning, even as it's taking shape in America, country music is going out to other places and being sort of reshaped and reformed, and and in some ways finding its way back to America and being influenced by that music. And so it's long been this exchange. And so, yeah, I think it's important in terms of thinking about that question of race in country music, but there's that added layer on top of that as well. It's related to global country music and the ways that this music has always been traveling, you know. We think about it as music about one place, music that's about standing still, stasis. It's music that really is formed through cultural exchange and cultural clashing and movement and migration. And so when I look at the history of Jamaica and country music, Jamaican culture and country music, and I look at that exchange and I look at the back and forth, and I look at the way that Jamaicans made it their own, the way that it's shaped reggae, but also that reggae has, you know, shaped some American music, uh, I think that it it just shows that you know it's a two-way street, really. Um it's not just American soft power reaching other places, it's really this sort of uh two-way street. I guess the the other side of it on a personal note as well is that part of what I wanted to do when I started the show, you know, and certainly as time went on and the whole Beyonce moment happened, which you know, for the record I'm a fan of, what I really wanted to do as well is show that black people in the Americas, black people everywhere, they don't just it's not like they they just love country music that is either the black roots of country music or modern reinterpretations or takes by by black artists. What I wanted to show really with a lot of Jamaican fandom of country music in particular is that there are a lot of black people that love white country music, you know? And that that can come as a, you know, a couple years ago, that's a surprise to a lot of people. But when I look at the Jamaican story, it also does that. It shows that the fandom aspect is is complicated when it comes to race as well. So not just in terms of who's making the music and what the history of the music is and where it came from, you know, what's the risk of some of those narratives of looking back at the roots and you know, looking at modern stuff like Beyoncé is that we we end up being like, you know, black people love that that other stuff, that real music, that blues, the stuff that came before country, or you know, Beyoncé's putting a twist on it that black people could, you know, love again. It's like, no, there is this long history in Africa and the Caribbean, across the global black diaspora of people loving the classic country sound, which is often made by white people, um, as well. Um, so yeah, I sort of wanted to make I think it sort of makes this point around um musical tastes um as well amongst uh Jamaicans

African Country Through Empire And Radio

SPEAKER_01 32:49

too.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Speaking of, you know, what you sort of have brought to us as sort of like this global understanding or global love for country music, I couldn't have you on here without you delving a little bit more about the African connections to country music, of course, right? One that, you know, I don't know how many of us are fully aware of, but again, you know, we've been talking about the ways that black people across the world, through movement, through migration, um, through sort of this like American propaganda and everything else, right? Um, have brought country music to various other countries, but also, you know, as we've talked about, we've had our own sort of rural ethos that we've been passionate for. So could you share with us a little bit more about um, you know, the other half of your work focusing on country music in Africa, um, and maybe sort of how that relationship compares to what you've seen within the Caribbean?

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yeah, for sure. And and I think there are some sort of you know, broad themes I see as similarities. And of course, I'm talking about African country music that's West Africa, southern, central, eastern, well, all with different histories and stories and and and different aspects. But yeah, I see a similar sort of journey from, you know, the music finding its way through these American exports, it being borrowed and covered, um, and then post-independence it being really reinterpreted in these surprising ways and remaining um sort of part of the music in in more abstract ways. But I've spent a lot of time thinking about um and researching African histories of country music, and a lot of it found its way via the British Empire. So there was, you know, connection between the US and the UK, and a lot of early hillbilly and country records, a lot of cowboy films via the British Empire found their way into southern and eastern and then points Western Africa. And so there's a similar starting point of these singing cowboys and western films, the rise of the guitar that really shapes a lot of early um African popular music in the 30s and 40s, even earlier sometimes. There's a whole world of early African popular music recordings that are very sort of like hillbilly yodeling kind of uh cowboy stories, but set in mining towns in southern Africa and you know uh mining towns in in Zambia. Um a lot of this also interacts with the history of like uh the BBC uh in the UK and in their early radio days. Um, so there's a whole um interesting history there, and it all gets mixed into with sort of quote unquote traditional African music and and you know, finds its uh its varying forms. Um differences that you see across uh both is that I I think because a lot of um this country music was reaching Africa via in these diffuse ways by the British network via you know, by these global interactions, by World War II, the idea of America isn't sort of as strong to begin with. Whereas I think in Jamaica, America's right there. People, as you said, there's like migration back and forth, there's a real sort of connection to it. And so American ideas and you know, fashion and all of these things sort of find their way in in ways that they they don't uh as directly in uh African music. Um and there are, you know, even in the 70s and 80s, lots of African artists who are kind of playing with country sounds and doing country things that may not even be thinking about Nashville or America in that sort of same way. Um, so it creates a very different relationship. One of the similarities and something that is always worth talking about is the way that this music lives on. And so I think in both parts of Jamaica, and you know, talking about, like, for example, rural Zimbabwe, there are places where, you know, you're still hearing that like 70s or 60s country stuff, they're dedicated radio stations. The tradition just remains a major part of certain um places and and and communities. Also the church, you know, I feel like one of the places when I visit Jamaica as well, if I think about where I saw some semblance of country music, it was in the churches as well. And you think about the hymns that they're singing and things like that, but some of those melodies are still there and it's the same in in some parts of, for example, um, Eastern Africa that that that it remains in the churches. But yeah, there there's definitely some similarities going from cowboy music through to like the 70s post-independence stuff where there's a you know, there's a hint of cowboy in the songs, or there's like a a slightly um, you know, kind of heartbroken type of character of masculinity that you see in in some of the pop stars, even though they're singing music which is afro-pop or disco or reggae-inflected music, um, some of those country characters and themes sort of stay there in exciting ways. So um, yeah, it's been interesting to come to compare the two uh over time for sure.

Favorite Tracks And Listening Roadmap

SPEAKER_00 37:47

We have given a few examples. So you talked about Beanie Man, you talked about Lady Saw. I really thought of this episode because I was I don't know if it was a dance hall mix that was playing at some sort of family gathering or something on YouTube, but Pinchers 1991 Bandolero came on. And I was sitting there and I was going, Hey Gringoza and Pacero, and then it I just had this moment, right? Um, and so for those who are unfamiliar, it's a 1991 dance hall song, um, which on one hand, you know, further complicates uh our conversation about country music because you know, he's using words like bandilero, which, you know, obviously have you sort of get to which you sort of referenced a little bit earlier in terms of um the Spanish and Mexican even connections to um country music as well. He says, you know, there are references to Zorro and um El Paso and Spaghetti Westerns and all of these things that come up, right? But I was sitting there listening to this song and I kept, I kept, you know, singing the chorus over and over again. And I I think the moment for me at least where it really dawned, because I don't think I even had really put these connections between country um and Jamaican music together. And so for our listeners tuning in, what are some other of your favorite examples of um these sort of connections between the Caribbean and country music?

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Yeah, that's that's a great example that you have. And there's also uh, I think uh around sort of the uh 60s, there's there's a string of uh album covers. You know, you could like piece together like a collection of these album covers of Jamaican music, which just have these really strong Western themes or reference, you know, Clint Basewood or um, you know, Good, Bad and the Ugly, like all kinds of uh spaghetti western films are hugely popular and just became a theme, which also means you do get, as you said, some of these other connections from the Americas um in Jamaican music too. It's it becomes this kind of global, global exchange in a way. And I think um one of the most popular touchstones I I would imagine still to today for Jamaican music from American Country or from that kind of cowboy thing is Marty Robbins' gunfighter ballads and trail songs, just remains this like hugely popular song, or you know, you can find so many references to it. Um and so for me, those are sort of some of the fun examples, like the Western themes and the imagery that you that you get in the music. In terms of some of the songs that I love, um for me it's the 70s and 80s stuff. And so the big ones that come to mind are um, I mean, I think lots of people know this one, but Titsina May Tales uh Take Me Home Country Roads is is such a huge one, just because I think it has all of the things that we've been talking about in one place in lots of ways. Um has that sort of rural connection, but very much made um Jamaican. Um it sounds more sort of spiritual or like a gospel song. So there's this sense of home that's that's kind of like um goes beyond the idea of home as a place, and it's home as a promised land, and you know, home is somewhere you're working towards as well. And so I think it touches on that um really beautifully. And it's just I think also for kind of Win Rush Jamaicans, it's it's you know being caught between the two, imagining Jamaica's a home, but knowing you're in this new home and and and sort of having to sort of be more abstract about your idea of home. So that one looks really large. And then there are loads of musical examples which I think people should just go and listen to. So again, Toots and the Maytels had a great song in 1983 called Beautiful Woman, and it's very much a Toots song, but it has these like pedal steel guitar licks throughout, which are very country, but just work so well in reggae music and reggae pop music uh as well. And and if you go back to again the like the Trojan box set of uh reggae country box set, there are so many of those examples where musically it just kind of comes together, or you get this very reggae song that suddenly has a little bit of fiddle on it. Um, so so those are examples. There's also um I think it's called Raymond White, a fiddle player, uh Jamaican fiddle player, who I think had a history of kind of going to the US for work and learned to play the fiddle. Um, and he features in a lot of early, very popular ska songs. Uh so even um the tide is high, I think the the sort of like fiddle breakdown you get on that, um, or even throughout, I think it's not even a breakdown that you get throughout, is on that. And there's some early kind of ska songs that he features on, and they just you know you have these beautiful like duets uh where suddenly it breaks out into this like fiddle um moment as well. So if you if you look up yeah um Raymond White and and look up some of his music, I think you'll come across loads of beautiful tracks that I really appreciate. So those are some of the uh kind of big connections, musical connections that I think of and really stand out to me. There's there's a visual side to it with and cultural side to it with the cowboys, and then there's just these like musical overlaps that are that are really beautiful.

Jamaica As The Place Songs Finish

SPEAKER_01 42:56

You asked me for one, I probably gave you like six examples already. But the the one that I that I I really do think about, and just for me was so important was uh the harder they come, because I had grown up with that film, my uncle's loving that film, and um, you know, really came to appreciate it, and it came, it came to sort of shape in some way my UK Jamaica viewpoint and that history. And then just after making lots of these country discoveries, going back to that and just seeing, you know, there's a major moment where I think he's watching Django or you know, Western film in there, and it's this musical sort of like journey that is very much inspired by westerns, but through a Jamaican lens, and and and so for me I just started to see like, oh yeah, country music is so embedded in these subtle ways in in Jamaican music and culture, and that's such a strong example of that coming out. And I think Jimmy Cliff even went to record some later sort of 80s stuff in um not in Nashville, but in uh there's that place where there's a lot of country soul taking place. I've forgotten the name of the. Yeah, somewhere else in the south in the US, um, that he was a part of too. So these yeah, these histories connected in so many ways.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

I welcome all the recommendations. So no matter how many of them, um, they will show up on our strictly fact syllabus. So for our listeners, you know, wanting to tune in um and hear some of Jamal's recommendations, they'll be up there for you to check out. I want to close on, I think, a very sort of cementing question for our conversation. And really, it's the fact that, you know, beyond just the music itself, right? I think our conversation also reveals that the Caribbean more broadly is thought of, you know, as this place of tourism and extraction, right? Where we absorb things, um, or things are placed on us, right? But I think as we've been pointing to throughout our conversation, right, um, it's also about our creations, right? How we've transformed um sound or culture, etc., and have really remixed things, if you will, or you know, also been originators of of global cultural influence. And so could you really speak to, you know, the ways that you have seen Jamaica and the region at large really, you know, being influential in that sense by creating something distinctly our own. Um, so it's not just, oh, Jamaicans love country music as you were, you know, sort of roofing on earlier, um, but really us painting an image of ourselves through connections that we can we can now appreciate.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Yeah. I mean, first off, that was a that was a very humble way to ask the question because I think we uh outsize cultural influence. Outside cultural influence, uh, you know, incredible global cultural influence, uh, I think Jamaica has, and it's it's so clear. Um, but but yeah, some of those popular narratives maybe also just support sort of more simple ideas of um of Jamaica as a as a kind of yeah, a a smaller place, but or or a more kind of narrow idea of what Jamaica is. But um yeah, I think that if you think of the Caribbean, if you think of Jamaica, it's in lots of ways this meeting point, as you said, this melting pot of you know colonial trade routes, migration, everything. And so what I've taken from from lots of this and conversations with other people and and and you know great books that I've read, I should probably shout out some of those as well. Um base culture, major one, uh go read that. Uh there's country references in there. It's a story of obviously of uh not of country music, but but it you see the references in there in the early in the early um reggae days. But um, yeah, the things that I've taken out of it, sorry, are that um Jamaica has developed this incredible muscle over time of taking things and reworking them and taking things and using them to explore and express our own identities. And that that's so clear in all of this. And to your point about it just being remixing or whatever, the the maybe the more braver thing to say here, or the bigger point, is that sometimes I like to think about it as Jamaica isn't a place where American music goes to get remixed or remade or or you know just get like a Jamaican accent or a twist. It's it's where it goes to get completed. It's where it goes to get finished, is sometimes the way that I think about it. And I I wouldn't uh write a write an academic paper on that or anything, but sometimes that's the way that it um feels. Maybe there's an original country song um that then gets covered in in Jamaica, but but that country song has this long history before that that maybe even gets to you know blues music or gets to um goes back to the Caribbean in some way in instrumentation or other parts of the world. And you know, by the time it becomes popular in America and makes its way to Jamaica, Jamaica's where it goes to get those finishing accents to become something that reflects this long journey that it's been on. Um and that's the way that I like to think of some of those music. That's the way I think of you know Toots' uh uh version of um Take Me Home Country Roads. Um it's like that's that's him finishing the song. The song wasn't done yet. Um and it's not it's not just uh a sort of remix. And so that's when I look at it, that's sort of the bigger picture and story that I see uh in all of this. But I'm curious on on your take when you hear some of these songs from from all your conversations.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Certainly, before we we close, I'll I'll share. I think we are in a moment now where we think about like the dance hall influence, right? We see that very evidently on TikTok and all of the things now, right? Where um people like a French Montana will jump on a dancehall song. And to your point, which is I was over here like really like ooming and eyeing as you said, they go to Jamaica to be finished. Because I said, I don't think that when I've heard we can take this with a grain of salt, but there are a certain dance hall songs that are the original that when a US artist goes on it, I'm like, eh, was it really better? Now, does that does that apply across all the songs? Of course not, but there are a few that I'm like, I still play the original. Um, but yeah, I I fully agree that I think, you know, one thing we've always done really instrumentally is music is culture. And to say, oh, you know, Caribbean people are just um borrowing and remixing or and you know making covers, there are some there are full songs that people don't know are not, you know, Sanchez's right, for instance, as as a as a cover professional to in a sense, such as Sanchez, right? There are songs that I had no idea growing up were not Sanchez's songs until as a bigger person, I would go, oh wow, like that's that's the original. And also, very similarly, I still like Sanchez's version better. So um, all that to say, we do culture so well that to you know say we're just you know remixing, making covers of foreign songs diminishes our impact in a lot of ways. And to a point that I feel like you've made, we've made throughout the show, um, and several scholars and you know, cultural ambassadors have made, we are such a small place that given the influence that we've had on the world, we can't, you know, you can't limit it to, oh, we've just been re there would be no way that a Jamaica comparatively right could have the musical impact that we've had if we were just quote unquote making remixes. Um, and so all that to say, I I definitely do agree with your point that, you know, there are songs that come to Jamaica to to be completed, to be finished. And I love that. Um, and I thank you for imparting that with us on our

Recommendations And Farewell

SPEAKER_00 51:06

guest. For all those who are listening, I definitely want to give Jamal's show another shout out. So if you were really captivated by this conversation about country music um and want to hear more about the ways that country music is impactful and shapes and is shaped by black people, um, by global cultures, definitely check out Jamal Kadar's show, Reimagining Country on NTS Radio, one that I definitely recommend and I think will definitely expand our conversation out even further, whether that is, you know, about US artists, about um artists across the continent of Africa, um, and of the Caribbean, of course, as well. And so, Jamal, thank you so much again for joining me. Um, all of the things that we've talked about will be up on our strictly fact syllabus for you all to check out. And till next time, look a more.