SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Just a quick note before we get started, this conversation with Dr. Natania Duncan was so rich that we've divided it into two parts, and this is part one, where we begin unpacking the foundational roles women played in the Universal Negro Improvement Association. Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean history and culture, hosted by me, Alexandra Miller. Strictly Facts teaches the history, politics, and activism of the Caribbean and connects these themes to contemporary music and popular culture. Hello, hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean history and culture, where we explore the rich and complex histories that have always shaped the Caribbean and its diaspora. Today we turn our attention to the Universal Negro Improvement Association, or the UNIA, an organization known for its groundbreaking work in Black empowerment, Pan-Africanism, and community building. While a Jamaican-born activist and now national hero, Marcus Garvey often dominates the conversation regarding the UNIA and its 20th century activism, the organization was sustained and propelled by the tireless efforts of black women. Their leadership, organizing, and vision have too often been overlooked, despite being central to the organization's impact and legacy. In this episode, we are shedding light on some of these women and the important work that's being done about them, exploring their roles within the UNIA, and examining how their contributions helped shape a movement that sparked and spanned the globe, really. And so joining us for this very timely conversation, which we'll get into in our discussion, we are being joined by Dr. Natanya Duncan, Director of Africana Studies, and the Associate Professor of History at Queen's College CUNY, and the author of An Efficient Womanhood, Women and the Making of the Universal Negro Improvement Association. So, Dr. Duncan, thank you so much for being here and for joining us for this episode. Why don't we begin with you telling our listeners a little bit more about yourself, your connection to the region, and what inspired your interest in this book, and you know, wider interest, including Black intellectual history, identity, and nation building?

SPEAKER_01: 2:19

Thank you so much first for having me, Sister Milla. I really appreciate it. Um my interest in the topic actually came as a result of an undergraduate research project. I was a United Negro College Fund Mellon Fellow. And in my junior year, we were afforded the opportunity to propose a research grant for our topic. My topic at the time was a comparative study of women in the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and women in the Universal Negro Improvement Association. I wrote the grant, I get to Jamaica, and as a part of the grant process, I indicated that I would do interviews, believe it or not, with Rupert, Lewis, and Patrick Henry, who had completed a collected essays volume on Garvey and his work in impact. And so I go to Jamaica to University of the West Indies. I spent some time with Patrick Bryan. Full disclosure, I'm a child of the diaspora. My mother and Patrick Bryan's wife were best friends and went to short with teachers college in Jamaica together. And so I was, you know, afforded a little grace in terms of connecting with him and then getting an introduction to Professor Rupert Lewis. And my conversation with Professor Lewis was an interesting one. I went on and on about who the women were in the NAACP, who the women I had discovered were in the UNIA, what the differences were according to my research at the time, how important I thought this project would be, you know, and at the end of, I think maybe about 42, 43 minutes, because I recorded our conversation, he says to me, This is wonderful, but can I just ask you a question? Besides you and me, who else knows the names of the women that you just told me about? And that kind of like set me back a little bit, you know, realizing in that moment that people didn't know the names of the women in the UNIA. They knew Mary Church Tyrrell, right? But they didn't know that Mary Church Tyrrell was friends with the membership in the Brooklyn UNIA and used to go to meetings to help them raise money that eventually helped them buy a building, right? Um They didn't know that Ida B. Wells was one of Marcus Garvey's early supporters and hosted parties at her house in Chicago to get him, you know, started in the area. And she and her husband basically introduced him to some of the more elite African Americans of the period in Chicago that got him entryway into a lot of black churches and acceptance with black ministers that helped grow the organization in the city of Chicago. And the same could be said of Charlotte Bass in Los Angeles. So at the end of that, I realized that the project was going to be a little bit different than I had intended. And I went to St. Anne, which is my home parish, and had conversations with people at the time who still remembered Garveyites in the area. I had the privilege of connecting with persons who introduced me to Mother Samad, known as Sister Samad, who had basically repatriated. I say repatriated because she says she repatriated, but really she's an American-born person who adopted Jamaica as her home country. The same was true for Madame Mamie Demina Aiken, who helped launch Jamaica's independent political process. And so at that time, I decided that I would focus on talking about women in the UNIA's leadership, still not realizing that that word leadership was going to change its definition for me over time. Because normally when we think about leadership, we think about people who are like the head, who have a specific title, their Madam Vice President, their secretary, their international organizer, right? But in the UNIA, leadership for women was more organic and practical and realistic than I had first assumed or had been led to believe. But fast forward, I graduate undergrad and I get to grad school, and I have professors who are pushing me on why is this so important? Why do we care, right? Like, why do you want to talk about these black women in this, to them, in their minds, obscure organization? And I couldn't help them understand that the word universal really meant universal. That the organization existed almost everywhere on the planet, right? I mean, they're Aborigine people who belong to the UNIA, right, in Australia. Um, and and that legacy is actually lived out during the Black Power era as well. And so there's this long-standing connection in South Africa, in Ghana, throughout the United Kingdom, in Nova Scotia, in Halifax, and in South America. And so I'm trying to find a way to convince them that this is a viable project. And I end up in the library, going through the New York Times, reading, looking for any mention of the Universal Negro Improvement Association. Anything that would be like my showstopper, my aha, my this is why I have to finish this project. And I come across the assassination of Laura Kofi. And up until that point in my life, I believed that only black men got assassinated, right? Black women, because the image of the civil rights woman, right? She has her pocketbook, she has on her Sunday church shoes, she has on her hat, she has on gloves, she always looked like she was praying or she about to serve fried chicken, you know, um, she's singing in the choir, right? There was never this idea that black women were disturbers of the peace, right? And they were always marching along beside somebody or working in cooperation with, or they belonged to some larger organization. But this idea of this woman being assassinated, it just stopped me. And the questions changed. What was it about women in the organization that made people scared, uncomfortable, or feel threatened? So much so that they had to silence a Laura Kofi. That then brought me back to a question that I had been playing with from the start of the project. What happened to Amy Ashwood? Why is Amy Ashwood not a part of the historiography of the UNIA? How come they wrote her out of the story? The divorce could not have been that bad, right? Um, she still had all of these UNIA friends, from what I could tell. Because she, you know, periodically would pop up in correspondences and so forth. And then I knew all about her in Manchester and her interactions with W.E.B. Du Bois and George Padmore. So what happened? Why she fell off? Then I realized that there was a sort of silencing. And I couldn't decide if it was the fault of the historians who were looking to rescript, retrieve Marcus Garvey himself and the Universal Negro Improvement Association as his mission, and that we just hadn't gotten to this other part of the work yet because we we still had some fixing to do, right? Or was there a deliberate, um, willful ignorance, so to speak, about the role of women that emanated from within the organization itself. And that led me to start reading the Negro World like it was Bible, like it was the last book of the Bible, chapter and verse. And that's where I found the women, their names, their addresses. They were very brazen. They put their address in the Negro world, so then I could go and look for them in the formal government records, right? In the census data, in the city registry. I could look at mortgage deeds. You know, some of these women actually owned homes. Oh my goodness. Um, and see how their activism played out really under the radar of the powers that be. In part because, as many people know, J. Edgar Hoover surveilled Marcus Garvey. And all of what he learned, he then applied to what became COINTELPRO and used that when he followed Malcolm X, El Haj Malik Shabbaz, Martin Luther King, the Black Panther Party, and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. And so his attention, lucky for me, was not only on Mr. Garvey, but on people immediately close to him. One such person was Henrietta Vinton Davis. And so I started following the FBI records on Lady Davis, coordinating that with what I read in the Negro world, and then labeling some information from the Negro press as well as the mainstream press, and started to see, well, who were Lady Davis's friends? Who did she mentor? And that's how I started to see the activism of women in the organization. At that time, however, I hadn't come to the term efficient womanhood. I hadn't come to the term diasporic back chat because the archive was still teaching me. One of the things that I try to encourage people, graduate students and my colleagues alike, is you know, we have to sort of check our assumptions, right? Check what we've been taught and what we believe at the door and allow the archive, allow the people who lived it and spoke it and did it and said it and left us information because these women wrote their own story. They wrote into the Negro world. So they told me what they wanted people to know. They actually provided me the narrative, right? And so that didn't fit with the categories that I had previously been introduced to. It didn't fit neatly with respectability politics. As sure as I didn't fit into the whole separate spheres construction, right? Um, and this whole idea of quote-unquote grassroots, no, because they're organized in a different kind of way, right? Many of the women I encountered were actually doing work before they come to the UNIA. And so when they come to the UNIA, it's really credentializing the work that they had already been doing, giving them an international network, you know, some backative, as we would like to say. And so I began to see that they actually incorporated their gender concerns with the nationalist aims of the organization itself. And that they didn't see them as separate but equal, they saw them as simultaneous and intertwined with one another. And so as I began to flush out the chapters, my dissertation chair, Brian Wood, I'm gonna say his name, says to me, point blank, if I read one more time the sentence that you seem to hang your hat on, and this is how they blended gender and nationalist concerns. And this was the blending of gender and nationalist concerns. If you say that one more time, I am going to pull all my hair out. There has to be a name for this. We have to call it something. What is it? So I was in the library, and for those of us who do African American history and history of the diaspora, particularly those of us who focus on um gender, we have two favorite sections of the library: the Isle Desmart E185 and the Isle Desmart H20, right? We got our black studies and our gender studies. So I was going down E185 and I saw Damnation of Women in a book of essays by W.E.B. Du Bois. And I was just pulling books off because now I'm on the hunt to figure out what I am going to do, what am I gonna tell him? I can't go into another meeting without having something to say. So I'm reading this essay from Du Bois, and in it he says that these women had the strife, the struggle, and from that struggle was born an efficient womanhood. I said, aha. So now we're going to quote Du Bois in reference to Garvey and Garveyism and just totally upset the apple card, right? Because how could I do that? People misleadingly believe that Du Bois and Garvey were, you know, um famed, sworn enemies until the time of each one's death. But in actuality, in a book um entitled Dusk of Dawn, Du Bois actually backpedals and corrects some of his assertions about Garvey and concludes that Garvey was simply a man ahead of his time. And as we know, Dr. Du Bois ends up in Ghana. Um, that's where he decides to make his transition from this life. And so some of Garvey's vision and Garvey's dream is actually lived by Dr. Du Bois in the 1960s. But as I use the term efficient womanhood, it satisfied the committee basically because none of us knew any better at the time, you know, and and God is merciful, I got out of grad school. So I work on the book over a number of years, and I travel. I go everywhere that the Garveyites were. So I'm in Barbados, I'm in Grenada, I'm in Guyana, I go to Cuba twice, I go to South Africa, uh, go to Ghana, uh, I spend a lot of time in Jamaica, I go to Trinidad, I go to Canada, and I end up in the last leg of it, and when I said, okay, now I I think I I have enough, I end up in the United Kingdom at the queue. And they have a set of the Negro World Newspaper in folders, not digitized, because it can be digitized. It's already dilapidated. October 1919 edition. And I'm supposed to be reading with gloves and a toothpick, right? Because you're not allowed to actually turn the page. And the archivist brings out the folder and she says to me, I realize that this is very serious for you, isn't it? So I was like, yes. She says, okay, I'm going to turn my back and you're going to take pictures, and then I'm going to take back the folder.

SPEAKER_00: 18:51

And so I just want to give a shout out to the librarians with small mercies because it is a very difficult, difficult road to do some of this work, but continue.

SPEAKER_01: 19:01

Yes, yes, because, you know, you have to, not only do you have to read, you know, the the crumpled up half eaten by insect paper, right? You then have but so much time to take notes. And so I, you know, whipped out my phone, which I wasn't supposed to have, and I started taking the pictures. And I took picture, picture, picture. I'd like took three pictures of the same page. And then I and then I would take a picture of a section of the page and, you know, so to make sure I could zoom it up and blow it out. And in that, I landed a speech from a woman named Hannah Nichols, who actually called for an efficient womanhood. And so I realized that there was divine intervention in the day that I found the term and decided to use it in the library while at university. Of Florida, and I appreciated the challenge from Deborah Gray White at the time, who asked me, Well, did they use that term? Why do you keep using that term for them? If they didn't say it, then why are you saying it? And it sort of pushed me to, okay, I either I'm going to change it or I'm going to prove that this is theirs. Not knowing that I would actually get a chance to prove it, I was trying to, and just being honest, I was looking at the League of Colored People paperwork, their magazine and their papers, and really at trying to excavate Amy Ashwood's life in England to see if there was anything in there that I could use that would help me. And instead, this was the answer that I got back from the Ancestors in the Universe. And so that's how I then was able to rescript the introduction and solidify the use of the term and efficient womanhood for the text. And I know that's, you know, a long-winded way of answering the question, but I think it's important for people to understand process and that the writing is never fully done or fully finished. It's what you know at the moment that you're able to write about. The questions that you ask or the questions that are asked of you, stretch this thing, push this thing. And what becomes important is being grounded in the sources in a way where you can determine whether or not you need to go further or you need to just stand your ground, like you can just dress back. So now when people ask me, well, did anybody other than Hannah Nichols ever use the term efficient womanhood? I simply respond by saying no one else had to. She issued the call, and here is the evidence of the response. This is how it mapped out. No one ever came back to Hannah Nichols, who was a younger person in the organization at the time, and said, Oh no, that's a dumb idea, right? Instead, women took it upon themselves to begin to create spaces where they had autonomy, where they could elect one another, decide who would be the head, the second, the third, whether or not they wanted men to belong to the space or not belong to the space, and ran with it. And so my appreciation for how I got to this, ultimately, you know, and and this is maybe every scholar with their first book has some element of this in it. I wanted to understand something about the community that raised me, about the women that raised me. My mother's mother launched 14 children, not all of them biologically hers, but all of them biologically my grandfather's. And my father's mother launched 11. And when I say launched, I mean they found the money not only to send them to school, but to send them abroad and then support them while they were abroad. And there was something about the role that my father's mother, who was a grandparent that I got to know the most, the role that she played in her community, where she was lay midwife, seamstress, banker, negotiator, judge, jury, police. I mean, there my grandmother would write letters to my father or call my father and give us a list of things that we would need to bring. And my father's like, what are we doing with how many bottles of Mercury are comb? Why you, you know, and because she has this person to look after, and that person needs to keep some in their house, and blah, blah, blah. You know, and understanding that was a way in which she provided care, the politics of care, and the awareness for politics of care that had nothing to do with a government official, a JP, an MP, you know, um a council person. Like, what are we doing right here in our little community, in our little district, in our little village, to make sure that the things that young people need, young mothers need, are addressed. And understanding that this was something that she chose to do based on her own life experience helped me to understand what the women in the UNIA were doing, how valuable it was at the time, and how underappreciated it has been historically. And so that was my other, you know, entryway into the work was really understanding who I am and how I got here, and what legacy is it that I actually belong to and participate in.

SPEAKER_00: 25:34

Thank you for that introduction and also alluding to many of the questions I have for you, having read Umefficient Momented. I think it maps for us, as you said, the genealogy of how books really come to be. You know, as a grad student myself, I'm like, this dissertation already has taken many years for me, right? But to understand, you know, upon even transforming from dissertation to book, this is a, for some people, decades-long, even longer process. And as you said, letting the archives guide you, I found that really beautiful and I think important for listeners to understand that like the writing of history, the historiography, doesn't come in just a moment, right? It doesn't just come in a second. It's a a myriad of experiences and a journey, really, that takes, you know, the author, the historian to get from point A to point B. I do for a little bit want to map out for our listeners just some important points. We think of the UNIA, I think we think of Garvey a lot, right? And even to an extent, Garvey's influence on um later generations of black activists. But I do sort of want to map out for our listeners that the United Negro Improvement Association and African Communities League was founded by Garvey and First Wife Amy Ashwood Garvey in Jamaica in 1914 as a response to the systemic oppression and disenfranchisement of black people across the globe. Um, many of its missions included, you know, promoting racial pride, economic self-sufficiency, unification of the black diaspora, and as you pointed to, had locations and chapters really spanning across the globe. Very impactful newspaper, The Negro World, read by over 200,000 people. Um, but the point that I'm sort of wanting us to get to, as you outlined for us, is this notion of um women's leadership, right? And what that looks like. Um, but also the fact that there's these myths, I think, that surround this idea of women in the UNIA. So you sort of mentioned the two AMIs, uh, quote unquote, as it's often um discussed. And by that we mean Garvey's first wife, Amy Ashwood Garvey, and his second wife, Amy Jacques Garvey. Um, there's also, I think, a whole slew of other women who sort of get mentioned briefly in terms of their um affiliation or their identities as Garveyites. I think some people often talk about uh Malcolm X's mother, Louise Little, who was born in Grenada, as being a Garveyite as well. But I definitely do want us to start with um talking about Amy Ashwood and Amy Jacques. For you, and as you sort of were also alluding earlier, I think your book does a tremendous job of really cementing Amy Ashwood Garvey in the story of the UNIA. As you said, um she doesn't get her sort of due process in a lot of the historiography. And so, why was this really an important part of the process for you? How is this sort of similar and or in direct opposition to the imprint Amy Jacques Garvey left on the organization?

SPEAKER_01: 28:44

Thank you so much for that question. So a few things. Um, one, from the very beginning, it was always the universal Negro Improvement Association. Uh, there are some scholars who use United Negro, but it wasn't. It's always been incorporated from 1914, from that opening on Amy Ashwood's porch in Kingston, Jamaica, it's always been universal. Uh Amy Jakes comes into the picture as a friend of Amy Ashwood initially. And her relationship with Mr. Garvey um takes sort of a different um stance as Miss Ashwood's marriage to Mr. Garvey dovetails. It was important to me to bring Amy Ashwood into the story and to cement her contribution in order to help people understand one, the constitution of the organization. The UNIA's constitution is the only constitution at that time that enfranchised women. One member, one vote. In so doing, it then enabled women to have voice in ways that they couldn't have in other organizations, in other governments. And we have to understand that the UNIA considered itself a government in exile. What Amy Ashwood really does in the very beginning of the organization is sort of set a tone for the kind of partnership and nation building, the family structure, the togetherness, the oneness that the UNIA aspired to have. And her support of Mr. Garvey was one not only intellectual, but also financial. And I don't feel that people really understand what it meant to have her borrow money from her mother's purse. And borrow is used, you know, figuratively. She stole the money to circulate flyers, to then come to New York City and help her relatives deliver bread throughout the city. And while they're delivering bread, they're delivering the newspaper, um, the Negro World as well, and making sure that the Negro world newspaper got off the ground and got circulation. Those are key factors in establishing the Universal Negro Improvement Association, establishing its reach, establishing its audience. How can we tell a story without including those critical moments, right? Marcus Garvey could have come to the United States. Um, remember, he came on a failed mission, really, because he was coming here to meet um Booker T. Washington. By the time he reached, Booker T. Washington had passed away. And so he was gonna have to, you know, recalibrate, you know, um, come up with a plan B. And so the whole thing could have been a bust, but yet, you know, there was Amy Ashwood who had social capital, right? She had relatives who were here. Um, they had businesses that could provide a space. They were already in Harlem. And so her social capital is what actually helps get Marcus Garvey going. It gases the car, right? This is not to take away from Mr. Garvey himself as a speaker, as a leader, as a person who was a visionary, right? But he didn't do this alone. He didn't do this by himself. You know, we take the personal out of it for a moment, right? And look at what Amy Jakes accomplishes with the Negro world on behalf of women in the organization and outside of the organization, whether we agree with everything that she ever wrote and everything that she ever said, having that designated space, our women and what they think, encouraging women to write into the Negro world, taking on topics that included what makes a good husband and what to do when the husband is not functioning. Right? What does it mean to support a black business and why some black businesses should not be supported, right? Generating that kind of conversation in 1922, 1923, 1924 is significant in understanding how black nationalism evolves, how it spreads, and that she did it as the wife of, right, without formal title at that point, right? Because originally she was Mr. Garvey's secretary. And Amy Ashwood was also secretary, but she was secretary of the UNIA, not Mr. Garvey's secretary, right? That they held these offices, read correspondences, responded on behalf of Mr. Garvey or on behalf of the organization, means that they are then now scripting the voice that people hear and what people see, right? They are becoming arbiters of the image of the organization and of Mr. Garvey. And so understanding that Amy Ashwood set a trend, so to speak. She set up a paradigm, right? She befriended persons that would not normally be in Mr. Garvey's camp because they shared a similar goal, a similar aim. And Amy Jakes comes to also participate in that way. So they establish, without giving it a name in that moment, the first leg of what efficient womanhood is. Amy Ashwood married Mr. Garvey because Mr. Garvey had a brain, in her opinion. He was about something, right? And so, what did it mean to be a race woman? What did it mean to be a race man? Now, when that race man or that race woman no longer seemed to be on the same page with you or did not share the same ambition, then it was time to move on to the next thing. For example, when we look at Eula Taylor's biography of Amy Jakes Garvey, we understand that not at every point in their marriage, in their life together, was Amy Jakes totally convinced and totally, you know, 100% behind everything that Mr. Garvey said and did. But there's negotiation, and that's what makes it an efficient womanhood. The negotiation, Amy Ashwood's willingness to negotiate, to refuse to give up on the name Garvey, to re refuse to relinquish the name Garvey. Why? Because she helped build it, because it was an access pass, because it was internationally recognized, and she had contributed to making it internationally recognized, and so it would garner her audience. Now, what she did once she had that audience was specifically and uniquely Amy Ashwood, right? And her manifestation of the autonomous aims of the UNIA that led her into partnerships with persons that Mr. Garvey never had access to. You know, the George Padmores of the world, um, Ras McConnell, Jomo Kenyatta, you know, CLR James. She's she's in her restaurant, um, the Florence Mills in the UK. You know, I jokingly tell people, yeah. So she would bring out the curry and, you know, the rice and peas. And before she gave them the carriage, she would make them promise that they were gonna do X, Y, and Z. And that's how she ran her shop, right? But she creates this space where we see black internationalism evolving, right? And I think the the greatest line of demarcation occurs when we see how Amy Ashwood establishes the Friends of Abyssinia in support of um his imperial majesty, Hailey Selassie I, and sort of this push to galvanize uh black people globally in defense um of the kingdom of Ethiopia, and then Marcus Garvey writes of his disappointment of his imperial majesty. And it wasn't that Amy Ashwood wasn't as disappointed, right? Or as deflated. But again, the efficient womanhood negotiation. What do we say in public? How do we act in private? How do we act in public that is influenced or motivated by how we align ourselves in private, right? I mean, Jomo Kenyatta becomes the first president of an East African country, right, out of that group. Um, she is supporting uh Lolimpo Solanke and the West African Student Union, the WASU, right? And these are all inroads to, okay, we're going to build independent African nations and so we're going to educate independent African minds so that we can overthrow colonialism. Are we disappointed in what has happened? Clearly we're disappointed, but in the meantime, we have to start pushing, right? And this is how we get involved with the League of Colored Peoples, and so we we refashion. We don't come out publicly and say, Hayer Selassie has let us down, right? But also recognizing that in that moment, you know, Marcus Gary is mourning the loss of the symbol, right, that Ethiopia represents, the loss of an opportunity that Ethiopia represents, because, you know, Liberia is now a no-go, right? And there's no turning back, there's no coming back to Liberia by the 1930s. And even in that, we see Amy Ashwood and Amy Jakes attempt to course correct Mr. Garvey's assertions about one Africa, United Africa, and Liberia being the right place. We see Laura Kofi attempt to present Mr. Garvey with alternatives, right? And this is why the book opens with Amy Allen. Ashwooden ends with Laura Kofi. Um, because really, what I'm uh attempting to politely comment on, and and as well as with the quote from Louise Little, is how we've created this grand narrative, ignoring the very loud silence about the cost of all of this, right? The UNIA and Marcus Garvey's push and commitment and drive towards it made Amy Jakes unhappy in her marriage. She was married to someone who was not the best provider at points in their marriage, right? And this is true of all activists to some degree, you know, they're not physically present for their family in the way that their family would want them to be. In Amy Ashwood's case, you know, she and Mr. Garvey disintegrated, polite word. And from there, Miss Ashwood decided that, you know, she would find a better way, another way, but remain committed to the aims and objectives of the Universal Negro Improvement Association and lives a pan-Africanist feminist life that, you know, I argue needs more consideration than it has gotten in recent years. And I think although we think of Amy Jakes as Mr. Garvey's chronicler, truly his first biographer, and the champion of all his causes, we also have to realize that the plan that was hatched on Amy Ashwood's porch between herself and Mr. Garvey is the plan that she stuck to, so much so that when they ran into each other in the UK, they could speak decently to one another because they still had that in common. You know, the betterment of the race, the progress of the race was something that they both held dear. And so I just see sort of a passing of the baton from one Amy to the other. Other folks read it differently, and that's fine. I believe that Miss Jakes um just simply built on a foundation along with other women that was very much so cemented and laid and smoothed out by Amy Ashwood.

SPEAKER_00: 42:46

We're gonna pause here, but don't worry, the conversation continues. Be sure to join us for part two, where we dive even deeper into the labor, leadership, and legacies of women in the UNIA. Thanks for tuning in to Strictly Facts. Visit strictlyfactspodcast.com for more information from each episode. Follow us at Strictly Facts Pod on Instagram and Facebook and at Strictly Facts PD on Twitter.