Speaker 1: 1:05

Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean history and culture, hosted by me, alexandria Miller. Strictly Facts teaches the history, politics and activism of the Caribbean and connects these themes to contemporary music and popular culture. Wanton people class is back in session with a big celebration today Happy 100th episode of Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean history and culture.

Speaker 1: 1:33

What better way to kick off February, with it being Black History Month, reggae Month and so much more with another podcast milestone? And so our episode today is, of course, celebrating Black history as we trot through the diasporic connections in the British and Dutch Guianas what is present-day Guyana and Suriname to discuss nation power, community building throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, especially in terms of missionary work. And so we won't be taking this journey alone, of course, and I am extremely grateful to have Dr Brianna Royster joining us today, and she is the assistant professor in the Department of Gender and Race Studies at the University of Alabama, and so again, dr Royster, really grateful to have you on the show. Why don't you begin with telling our listeners a little bit more about yourself, your connection to the Caribbean, if any, and what inspired your interest in Black history, empire religion and Black internationalism?

Speaker 2: 2:34

Sure, alexandria. First, thank you so much for having me here. I am absolutely honored and thrilled to be here to speak with you today. I personally don't have a direct ancestral connection to the Caribbean as far as I know, like a direct ancestral connection to the Caribbean as far as I know.

Speaker 2: 2:50

Some of I think my earliest interest in history specifically Black women's history, but also stories of migration come from my grandmother right.

Speaker 2: 3:02

So my grandmother always tells me stories.

Speaker 2: 3:03

When I was little and I think one of the stories about my ancestors that has always stood out to me was the story of my fourth great grandmother who was enslaved in Tennessee and following emancipation she left Tennessee following a massacre and according to my grandmother she did that on foot.

Speaker 2: 3:20

So she walked from Tennessee to Alabama over a period of time and I think that really sparked my interest in stories of migration. But also in college I was part of a service learning group right a study abroad course where we spent time in the DR, specifically on the batays and you know, just kind of doing whatever they asked us to do. So a lot of that time I actually spent shelling peas, which also made me think about diasporic connections, because I also grew up shelling peas as my grandparents' farm right, but also we also went to Dahabon on market day and watching the experiences of Haitians trying to cross the border to sell their goods right. The violence with which they were met while crossing over, I think, more directly sparked my interest in stories of migration and women and the Caribbean more specifically.

Speaker 1: 4:18

I'm always fascinated to learn how people got introduced to their work, or you know what were some of the early catalysts, because I think, especially when you're doing research and doing these bigger projects, it can be you know you're in such a zone that sometimes you forget what really sparked. You know those early beginnings, so thank you so much for sharing. I really want to kick us off with us having this conversation about missionary work in a very intentional way, At least, you know, in my experiences of learning Caribbean history and history broadly, missionaries and missionary work are often pitted in a particular way and, you know, specifically acknowledging the harms done at the hands of, usually foreign, white religious groups, christian groups usually and I'm not, you know, discounting those things and the truths of those statements or those experiences. We, you know, discounting those things and the truths of those statements or those experiences. We've, you know, certainly discussed several throughout the show.

Speaker 1: 5:14

I can think of one episode in particular where we talked about sign language and the ways that you know, white Christian missionaries were coming to the Caribbean and sort of really negatively impacting the local Caribbean sign languages that were already introduced, right, but I think the interesting part for me about your work is it kind of, you know, shifts some of that on its head, especially when it comes to talking about race, and so the subjects in your research helped to really complicate this during a period of, you know, massive Black liberation movements over the course of, you know, like over a century really.

Speaker 1: 5:53

And ultimately, your research explores Black missionaries from the African Methodist Episcopal Church and the National Baptist Convention and the work that they carried out in the Guianas. However, you know really seeing its Black majority in the area as a place of empowerment, as opposed to the US where Black people were seen as the minority, and so could you help us, you know, just frame what's happening in the world at this time, both within the context of the US, of the Caribbean, of the Guianas, and also you know what's going on in AMEC and the National Black Convention as well.

Speaker 2: 6:33

Sure, so I'm going to start at the very beginning of my project, which is actually occurs before the missionaries arrive, and that is 1840, right, so 1838, 1840, when Black people are immigrating to Guyana.

Speaker 2: 6:49

And it's during that period of time, where emancipation has not occurred yet in the US, where Black people in the US absolutely see Guyana as a place of hope, right, really, the British Caribbean right as a place of hope and with the ways that they are engaging in that.

Speaker 2: 7:06

Now I will say they do not always engage with the realities of what is happening on the ground, right, once people are emancipated in Guyana, but it is still a place of hope, right, all of these Black people who are freed, right, it offers a vision of what the US can be for them, and some of those people who immigrate in 1840 stay and develop connections there. But they also continue to write back home, and quite a few of them are from Baltimore, right, and they are writing back home to people who are specifically involved with the AME church, and that is one of the ways that the mission work is kind of connected through time, even though the mission work hasn't been done in 1840. And so when the missions began, some of the earlier missions began with the British Methodist Episcopal Church in the 1870s, who eventually they will combine with AME Church and the AME Church kind of takes over the mission.

Speaker 1: 8:11

Before we get too deep into talking about the actual mission work. I did definitely want to underscore and ensure that our listeners know about the AME Church. You know the importance for them at this moment for Black people in the US, so could you sort of allow our listeners you know a lay of the land a little bit and to understand what these two organizations really meant in terms of Black collective religion, black organizing, etc.

Speaker 2: 8:40

Sure. So the AME, african Methodist Episcopal Church and the NBC, the National Baptist Convention Incorporated USA are the two denominations that I look at and during the time that I am looking at them the late 19th, early 20th century they are two of the largest organizations for African Americans right Black people in, specifically in the US. It is where you will find not all right, but a lot of cultural work happening, a lot of political work happening. The AME at the time that I'm studying they have long, long been an organization and my project begins. They are the largest religious denomination of black people in the US.

Speaker 2: 9:28

The National Baptist Convention began fully in name, a bit later, so not until the 1890s, right when, you like, truly, truly, truly have a fully formed NBC, although they exist as kind of smaller independent churches, if you will, prior to then, independent churches, if you will prior to then, and so eventually, actually across the time of my project, you will eventually have more Black people in the NBC than the AME, but you're still talking like millions of Black people at this time point who are involved, and so using their archives becomes greatly important for the work, because it truly is a hub for so much work, whether it is cultural, social, even political, religious, a lot of that work done, being done through the church in the late 19th century, early 20th century, when this project really, really, really begins.

Speaker 2: 10:29

And so what is happening in Guyana? Actually, there are a lot of issues going on with labor at the time In the US. The US is kind of dealing with the backlash, if you will right, of reconstruction. They are dealing with highly oppressive regimes, right honestly, in both areas, and I don't think people in the US always necessarily appreciate what is going on on the ground in Guyana beforehand, right.

Speaker 2: 11:03

But I will say, what happens over time is that, following emancipation in the US African Americans, they begin to think of other people in the world in need of their help. Right, specifically Black people. I believe there's a genuine care right for their Black brothers and sisters across the world and they're saying how can we help while also spreading Christ? Right, those are their goals.

Speaker 2: 11:30

I think things become a bit of a paradox when you talk about US imperialism combined with what it is that they are doing, which they are not ignorant of. And so it's interesting because at times I will read where they will talk about those involved in foreign mission work will say that they are using the coattails of American imperialism to help black people in the world. Like that is actually a direct quote. Right, that they're using the coattails of the US imperialism to help other black people in the world and to spread the word. Right. But there are also times and I know we'll talk a little bit more about the women later on, but there are writings from some of the women in the US who are actually calling for an end to foreign entanglements of the US while also continuing in foreign mission work, which they see as a kind of care work right. That's kind of what's kind of happening right in this world, as these missions are really starting out in the late 1800s, early 1900s, so my project only goes through like 1945 or so.

Speaker 1: 12:45

I think that is a story that's definitely not told, in a way, right. I think at least you know some of my experiences learning US history. It is very US history based and nobody else matters. We're exploring today, of course, and as we've done in the past, that's not the case, especially when you're coming from you know a more marginalized status and recognizing the other things that are going on in the world Right. Even Haiti comes out in your project and you know this understanding of.

Speaker 1: 13:26

Haiti is being, you know, sort of like a Mecca in a way Right. Sort of like a Mecca in a way right, that they were able to liberate themselves so many decades in advance of everybody else pretty much, more or less, at least you know, over on this side of the world, and do so in a way that you know is, I think you know, could be attributed to inspiration right, inspiration that you know communities Black to inspiration, right, inspiration that you know communities Black people in the US particularly, are drawing on and looking for hope in other places and trying to understand what to do right, and so I was just gonna say and, if I may, I want to be very clear that these Black missionaries will say explicitly that they do not believe White missionaries can say explicitly that they do not believe white missionaries can do this kind of work with black people in the same way, right, like they are very explicit about that in their personal letters.

Speaker 2: 14:17

So they do think that there's a difference in what they are doing with what black missionaries are doing. I also want to add that they also recognize difference, right, so there is absolutely African American exceptionalism happening here. But they do recognize difference in communities, right, while also wanting to be attached. But they also recognize the importance of people who are from the area, right, and so, while I work on missionaries and those involved for missions in the A&E and the NDC, maybe 80% of the missionaries that I study are actually from Guyana, right, and so only a small amount are from the US. But what happens is that they will use missionaries who are born in Guyana and many of them were educated in the US, right, so they may have come to an HBCU in the US, became affiliated with the AME church, and then they're sent back to Guyana or Suriname and work as as missionaries and work for the church. Guyana or Suriname and work as missionaries and work for the church.

Speaker 1: 15:30

I think that brings us to a really interesting point, as we sort of contextualize diasporic unity in the way that community builds right, at least you know, I think. Sometimes we tend to talk about you know Harlem as being one of those places where you know Black people from across the world come together especially you know we're talking the 1920s Harlem Renaissance period and we don't necessarily always think about, you know, decentralizing the US from that perspective and you know other ways that the very same things could have been happening, maybe in smaller pockets or whatever, but throughout the world. And so could you speak a little bit more to you know this idea of these diasporic connections really allowing for a different sort of understanding of Blackness outside of the US. As you know, people in Guyana, people in Suriname and then these black missionaries from the US also coming together, I think, for one, it's actually quite educational for people in the US, right?

Speaker 2: 16:38

So, while the AME and, honestly, the NBC too, they have foreign missions all over the world, they have their own periodicals over the world. They have their own periodicals that are directly related to missionary work. They also will post letters from the missionaries from where they are, and so there are, like your, regular lay people in the church in the US who are learning about Guyana through writings from missionaries, right, there are also times where the missionary's children, right, are also writing very, very, very short letters that are also at times, being published, right, pictures are being published in the periodicals, and you have writings from people in the US who are then more interested in daily life for people in Guyana, which also leads to additional donations, right, once they feel like they know someone, if you will, in these missions. And so one thing I think that it does for the people in the US is it gives Black Americans, like, a greater sense of connection, right, other ways to see different parts of the world that are not necessarily clouded by a view from, like, the US government, if you will, right, so they are able to see, read and learn about people in Guyana, what is going on with the churches, specifically in Guyana, and the work that they're doing, and then there's, like, some of the work that happens behind the scenes with the women, and there's also a sense of share oppression, right, and so, while they, people in the US, know and understand what they are going through, I think to also see what is happening in Guyana and some of the oppression that Black people are experiencing in Guyana also, like, adds to this sense of like we are connected, right, how do we help?

Speaker 2: 18:48

Right, how do we help and support each other? That this fight isn't just a fight about um jim crow in the us, right, this is a global fight. Like, how do we assist in that um? But also, like, how do we have these conversations with each other about, like, what we are going to do globally, right, so, so during this time they are absolutely in the early 20th century like using the term uplift, right, so how do we uplift each other? And what does that uplift look like in Guyana? In ways that may or may not be different than ideas of uplift in the US, right, but I think in some, what it does is that it increases feelings of diasporic connections.

Speaker 1: 19:34

From here I want us to you know, move through, talking about the shifts that happen in their, the sort of understanding of what's happening in Guyana, right, and so you mentioned earlier this sort of impression of these Black missionaries coming in and being like, oh, it's a safe haven, Right, Black majority, et cetera, and then them actually getting there and being on the ground and being like, oh, you know, like what is the actual reality of the situation? And so how does being on the ground actually, you know, demonstrate this difference in their viewpoints, or you know the evolution of their viewpoints and really you know concepts of imperialism, of nationalism, and even how they can lead to division within the Black diaspora.

Speaker 2: 20:26

Right. I think one piece of that is this kind of African-American exceptionalism piece right. That absolutely leads to division. There are things and ways in which they see the world, things that they prioritize right. That people in Guyana it isn't that they don't always think of uplift in the same way, although sometimes they don't always think of uplift in the same way, although sometimes they don't it is that people in the US feel that they should have more control over what's happening, right, Whereas people who are actually in the churches in Guyana in some ways they absolutely not right Like these are our churches.

Speaker 2: 21:04

Like, yes, we understand we are affiliated with you, but these are our churches. And so sometimes you see division happen in that way. But in other ways, I think when we're talking about what this idea of hope Black majority versus what they see and hear about when they're actually on the ground In some of the writings, you see that it's a little bit startling to them. But I also think that is part of the reason why having ministers affiliated with mission work, who were born in Guyana, becomes so valuable and important right, because they are actually familiar with what is happening on the ground. They're familiar with the structures that they are going to have to come up against right. They are familiar with the people. Even if they've been away for a few years, their families have still been there and they actually become a great resource for AME administration in the US, but also for the Guyanese people in their churches.

Speaker 1: 22:56

Certainly Do you spend some time with us just like explaining what these networks look like, how they were formed. I think there are a lot of interesting points that come out through your work, like the importance of education. You know these sort of hierarchical perspectives, the role of women in this moment and how those in the Guyanas are feeling really supported or empowered through this mission work.

Speaker 2: 23:23

So I really love talking about the women. One area I think of difference that I think is very clear in writings when it comes to people in the US and the AME church and people in Guyana who are involved in the AME church is Garveyism. So in the US, the AME church, like, they write privately, essentially saying they want nothing to do with it, whereas some people are familiar with the fact that Garveyism was popular in Guyana. And so on the ground, people who are involved in AME churches, also going to UNIA meetings right, they are also going to hear like Garveyite speak. And I think one of my more entertaining archival finds are from two people who are members of the AME church and they go to a UNIA meeting and they're not aware that they're going to see each other and so they're writing in personal correspondence and they're not sure if they are both actually people who are interested in Garveyism or if one of them is an AME spy, if you will, trying to figure out who was showing up to these meetings, right, it's amusing to see those letters in the archive. But I think that is also another area where, going to your previous question, where there's an absolute split between what's happening on the ground in Guyana and the interest and needs of people in Guyana versus Black people in the US, affiliated with the church, right, how their interests divert in particular ways Getting back to, like, the women and the networks.

Speaker 2: 25:03

A lot of the networks are connected through different auxiliaries, right. And so first I want want to say, before I begin even speaking about these networks, is that Afro-Guyanese people have had mutual aid organizations for a very long time. When my work begins in 1840, looking at immigration, right, afro-guyanese people already have mutual aid organizations set up on the ground running good to go, right. And so AME foreign missions are coming into a world that is already doing, right, a lot of this work, just without the religious bent at times, right, but they're already, like, very well organized in Guyana.

Speaker 2: 25:48

But basically a lot of the network specifically through the women happens through women's auxiliaries, and so in the AME Church that's the Women's Parent Life Missionaries Society and the Women's Home and Foreign Missions Society. So initially a lot of the connections that you see are happening between the wives of pastors, the wives of bishops, in the church and through the secretary treasurer of foreign missions who at the time that I am writing, is always a man, and so initially the correspondence goes through the secretary treasurer of foreign missions and the presiding elder and eventually the women's auxiliaries understand, like they know, they begin to know the wives of the ministers in Guyana, and then you begin to see more letters going directly between them, right At times without their husbands or without the secretary treasurer for admissions in the US even realizing what is happening. Right? So the women's auxiliaries are raising a lot of money. The youth department for the A&E at one time actually takes over paying all the salaries for the teachers who are affiliated with schools that are then affiliated with the churches. Right, and so the women hold a lot of the purse strings in the US. And because some of their correspondence goes through the secretary treasurer, right, at times he will deny things in Guyana and the women will then bypass him right and write directly to the auxiliaries in the US to say this is what we need and why, and then they will receive whatever it is they need. And at times people in Guyana may bypass the Secretary-Treasurer for Emissions and go directly to, like, the president of one of the auxiliaries. That president will at times send something directly back to that woman, but at times the president will also send a letter to the secretary treasurer for admonishing him, right, for not sending whatever it is, and then at times also saying I am giving you this to give to this person and I want you to know that I am also sending a letter to this woman in Guyana to let her know that you're going to be sending this right. And so those are some of the ways that different connections form and also grow.

Speaker 2: 28:20

And then you have the women in Guyana who are also doing a lot of work in the community and reaching out to the women's auxiliaries in the US for help. But the women in Guyana are also, if I can be, more relaxed in speech, right, like they are staying on the men's necks in the US, right, and so they are writing letters. And I think two of the women who I really appreciate in my work one is Mrs Dorothy Morris, who actually becomes an ordained deacon in the church. She's towards the end of my work and then a little bit earlier, is a Mrs Constance Lucky. And Mrs Lucky is the wife of a minister. Her minister passes away fairly, I'll say, maybe in the middle of my project, but she continues doing the work of the church, specifically advocating for women and children in Georgetown.

Speaker 2: 29:25

And so when the Secretary for Admissions in the US isn't necessarily doing what he has promised to do, she continues to write letters. Right, she will remind him. You made me this promise of this and I expect this thing to then happen. Right, and if it doesn't arrive on time, she sends another letter. Right, she sends a letter to the Women's Auxies at times when she does receive what she's asked for and it is late. Right, she will send a message saying thank you. However, right, we were supposed to receive Christmas money, for example, in December, which we greatly appreciate this money. Maybe next year you should send it before Christmas, right?

Speaker 2: 30:03

So, like, I love reading those interactions where these women are advocating for the people in their communities and actually holding some of these men accountable, saying these are things that you have promised me, my people and my organizations. That's just how some of the networks form, what some of the networks look like On the US side. They are also and I think it's not surprising, given the time period that the women's auxiliaries are largely responsible for the funding of women's and children's events. Right, if you will, in Guyana, and this also pertains to education at times. So they will pay for women's education, whether that be in some of the secondary education schools in Guyana, or whether that is like a woman coming to receive college education at Wilberforce or at Tuskegee, for example. Or sometimes it is the wives of ministers in Guyana coming to the US for a conference, right those kinds of things right. Women's auxiliaries in the US are also responsible for that, and you'll see correspondence happening amongst these women for those needs as well.

Speaker 1: 31:27

I always love these sort of like niche examples of people and women, in this case Black women, standing on business right For lack of a better way to frame me and, just, you know, being very intentional about the work and, I think, allowing us to understand that oftentimes we don't see that there are more bridges than we even, you know, really know about. And that, I think, brings me to a really interesting point in your project is that it is cemented in a lot of ways in archival research and like a lot of archival research right, which I think is, you know, there are different institutions that I think hold their correspondences, their records and things really well, and I think churches are one of those institutions, and so could you talk about what it was like to, you know, have this, you know, massive wealth of resources to go through, to pull from, and how it really demonstrates the importance of keeping our archives and our stories for future generations.

Speaker 2: 32:33

Oh sure. So the majority of my archives come from the AME Foreign Missions Archives and that is at the Schomburg Center in New York. It is greatly important because there are even times with those records where you can tell the Secretary of Foreign Missions may have kept some correspondence and then some is missing. But I think oral history is very important, right, but as far as like written things, right, if we don't keep these things I would never know about some of these women, right, the president of these auxiliaries absolutely show up in, like the monthly or the quarterly missionary periodicals. I guess, like some of you, more like average women who are part of the auxiliaries or the women who are writing back and forth from Guyana do not always necessarily show up in those periodicals. So a lot of what I have, for example, when I'm talking about Mrs Constance Lucky, a lot of that is from personal correspondence that was saved between women, right, some of that comes from the Secretary of Foreign Missions and what he saved, but a lot of it is because other women affiliated with the church saved this correspondence and without that the stories of these women, I don't want to say, would be lost, right, because again, I think oral history is largely important and, I think, also right. If we're just talking about Mrs Constance Lucky in general, right, her legacy in Georgetown in Guyana is solidified. Right, her story I don't think would be one that is surprising to people in Guyana. Right, she has a missionary organization named after her present day in Guyana, right now. Right.

Speaker 2: 34:26

But on the US side, right, there's not that knowledge of the importance of her and the work that she has done. And so, without some of these writings, some of these letters being saved, we lose some of the more granular and everyday organizing that was happening. Right, we lose how women were thinking of different forms of care. We lose women's some of their political ideas about what was happening in the church and how they connect that politically to some of the things that they're advocating for in Guyana. We lose that again. On the flip side of in the US, similar things, similar organizing, is also happening. So I think it's hugely important that we save documents. We have our own archives, whether that is in some place like the Schomburg or whether that's just in churches. Also, some of the sources that I use just come directly from churches Right, they come from meeting minutes Right. Some things also come from obituaries Right In my family, I think. When I was little I didn't understand like why are you saving these obituaries?

Speaker 1: 35:38

And I love that because that's something that everybody does right and they're always very pristine, like kept well, I think that's one of those, those diasporic things that we don't talk about enough, that it's like somebody's auntie, somebody's grandmother has kept these um, these obituaries, um these funeral programs, it's.

Speaker 2: 36:01

It's one of those things to me, but sorry to cut you no, no, no, that's um, it's so true, though right, and I love that. Um, like that is something that we share across the diaspora, right, um, and, as I said, like as a kid I didn't quite understand it, but now, working as a historian, I see how important those are, right, like, not just for personal memories, right, of this person, this loved one, this person that you've known, but for me, as a historian, they carry a wealth of information that I may not find out anywhere else, right, and so they allow me to build connections and to gain more insight into this person's life. And then also, it sends me off in different directions to dig for other things. Right and so developing.

Speaker 2: 36:47

Holding on to our own archives I think it's just so important. But also, when I think about archives, I also think about the things that are important to us right out, but the things that are important to us, right, so some institutions may not see the same importance of a particular document that I might, right. So keeping my own archive, if you will right, becomes again just so, so, so important for future work, so that we don't lose the work that these honestly trailblazing women for me because I specifically look at women the work that they've done, right the hard fight that they have gone through, and just an appreciation for their lives, right their grit, right their loves and just how they cared for their communities.

Speaker 1: 37:40

That point on archives, I think, brings me to what I also love to talk about, which is popular culture, right, and the way that we sort of bridge these histories in more modern and inventive ways, and so could you share with our listeners and I'll of course course, add this to our Strictly Facts syllabus some of your favorite examples of how this history shows up in popular culture throughout the diaspora, when it comes to this mission work and these sort of Black in the US and Black in the Guyana's connections.

Speaker 2: 38:18

I think, one connection, not necessarily like pop culture, but a lot of the descendants of some of these women that I am talking about specifically in Guyana, a lot of their descendants are actually in, or have been involved in Guyana's government at one point in time, right?

Speaker 2: 38:37

So these are the grandmothers of some politicians, right? But I also think, like for popular culture, cy Grant has, like, shown up in my work who's thought of to be as one of the first, like Black people, featured regularly in British TV, and he is Guyanese and his father was actually a Moravian minister. And so, while I write about the AME, for me it's an interesting connection because the AME speak about the Black ministers during this time period, one of which was Cy Grant's father, and the competition, right, like they think of this as a competition for souls, right? And so to see his father as a Moravian minister still show up in some of these other archives, and then Cy Grant goes on to, you know, become a very famous Chinese man in London, if you will, I think also speaks to some of the different connections that we see when we talk about Blackness and religion in the African diaspora.

Speaker 1: 39:40

Our last question for today. I think you know you've given us so much to think about and also I can see so many different ways. You know future conversations about religion and the diaspora go from here. But I think, as a final note, when we think about, you know things like missionaries, like Black international solidarity, imperialism, all of these very big topics right, the research on these topics focus on these large scale organizations. Oftentimes you know big name, quote unquote activists and groups, groups. How do you think knowing I don't like to say lesser known, you know, because that doesn't diminish their importance but how do you think our knowledge of these situations, of what's happening at the time, evolves or changes when we know a little bit more about these lesser known stories and demonstrating different sides of Black international cooperation that we sometimes overlook?

Speaker 2: 40:46

I think it allows us to see multiple visions of freedom, if you will right, multiple visions of what people think of as liberation, right. And so one of my committee members the way that he describes the people that I work on are Black international actors who do not frontally contest American imperialism but use it to pursue Black possibility that, if realized, would undermine imperialism. Right, these are not like your Claudia Joneses of the world, right, they are contemporaries, right, but they see the world and what they imagine as a liberatory space as a little bit different, right. And so I think when we kind of expand right or look into some of these smaller stories, we just see multiple visions of freedom, we see multiple visions of what a liberatory space looks like. Whether you agree or disagree with it, that people had right, because they do think of it in terms of uplift even people on the ground. These women in Guyana, right, afro-guyanese women, are also talking about the ways that they are uplifting the members of the church and the larger community, right, and in many times it is in line with AME teachings and at times it's not right, but it is still their vision of how they see that work happening.

Speaker 2: 42:22

And so I think there are many different ways that people will talk about and define Black internationalism. If you will and I do I just use my committee members quote right To say that you know. Yes, I understand these are not necessarily people on the far left, but they are people who, at least from my understanding, right, have a genuine care and love for other black people across the diaspora. Right and so, while I work specifically on Guyana and Suriname, right, they are also talking and writing about other places in the Caribbean. Right, they're heavily writing about connections to Africa, the US, you know, and Canada as well. Right. So, again, I think, for what may be the fourth time, it's just another way to see connections and visions of freedom amongst people in the diaspora.

Speaker 1: 43:21

I think that's a beautiful point for us to close on, especially for Black History Month right, that there's this long history of our love for one another and our wanting to not only free ourselves depending on where you are geographically, nationally, et cetera but support and uplift Black people across the world. So with that, thank you so much, dr Royster, for sharing with us a bit today. I know that I really enjoyed this episode and it gives us a lot of different ways to think about religion and the impacts it's had in ways that are not usually always at the forefront. So, for our listeners, I hope you enjoyed it. Religion and the impacts it's had in ways that are not usually always at the forefront. So for our listeners, I hope you enjoyed it. You know I always put up, you know, information articles that Dr Royster has and other, you know, paralleling research on our website for you to check out if you'd like to learn more, and so till next time, look a more.