Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean history and culture hosted by me, alexandria Miller. Strictly Facts teaches the history, politics and activism of the Caribbean and connects these themes to contemporary music and popular culture.

Speaker 2: 0:20

Hello, hello everyone, wagwan, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of Strictly Facts a guide to Caribbean history and culture. A big conversation I've been meaning to have is one on our vibrant food culture. You know, I think, whether it's bacon shark, the beautiful myriad of the several versions of curry right, All of the kinds of soup and what we do with soup, and which soup for this day, and all of the things that happen that makes us who we are as a Caribbean people. These are conversations I've been meaning to have for quite some time, and not only have I enjoyed learning about our food cultures but, of course, eating our dishes as well and sharing in the delight of how we are similar and even differ across the region. And so I am joined not by one, not two, but three amazing guests for this episode.

Speaker 2: 1:12

So join me in welcoming first Noelle Cunningham, who is a Jamaican-Canadian award-winning chef, author, food writer and culinary consultant. Born and raised in Kingston, Jamaica, he is the dynamic force behind catering company Cuisine by Noelle recipe, contributor to several publications, including the Jamaica Gleaner, host of his very own podcast, what's Cooking with Chef Noelle, and the author of cookbook Cuisine by Noelle Culinary Journey Through Recipes and Stories by Noelle Culinary Journey Through Recipes and Stories. Also, we have Leslie Enston, a seasoned home cook, recipe developer and food writer who takes great pleasure in spreading the joy and heat of Caribbean flavors, as introduced by her trained mother, to her friends and loved ones. She's the author of Bellyful Exploring Caribbean Cuisine Through 11 Fundamental Ingredients and Over 100 Recipes which will be published by Penguin Random House this fall in September. And Althea Brown, who is the founder of Metemji Blog.

Speaker 2: 2:18

A former certified Whole30 coach and a revolutionary voice of Caribbean paleo cooking, she is dedicated to sharing the Guyanese dishes she grew up eating and making her culture accessible to those with gluten allergies and sensitivities. Born and raised in Georgetown, Guyana, she is also the author of Caribbean Paleo 75 Wholesome Dishes Celebrating Tropical Cuisine and Culture. So, as you know, guys, some big guests on the show today. I'm so grateful to have you all joining me for this conversation again. Why don't we kick us off with you know, sharing a bit about how you all came to this passion for Caribbean cuisine, really, and we can start with you, Noel.

Speaker 3: 3:03

Hey, what's up up? Thanks for having me so definitely. Of course, you know, being a Jamaican, it's natural, or being from the Caribbean, it's natural to represent our food and our culture. It's what we know, what we grew up on, so it's just natural natural for us to do that. But as a trained chef, you know of course we trade the French way, different technique and cuisine style, not traditionally Jamaican food, which I also sometimes find weird that you know, we don't emphasize more on our type of cuisine. You know, or training start to grow more. In my field I realized that we need more chefs to represent our cuisine and also our cuisine is also growing. It's not just box food but it's also changing and growing. So why not tap into it and help to be that? You know, change that we want to see.

Speaker 2: 3:56

Thank you so much, Leslie.

Speaker 4: 3:59

Well, thank you so much for having me and it's so great to meet both of you, noelle and Althea. And I think, as Noelle said, growing up I so I grew up in toronto, actually, um, in a half trinidadian household, and just food, food, food, food is always the focus. Every family function. It's about food. You're coming together, you're making food. We go to trinidad food.

Speaker 4: 4:20

You know, the first thing when I would land as a kid, like where's the food? Just take me to the food. It's auntie making the food. You know, where's the roti, please now, um, so that was always fundamental growing up. And then as I, as I got older and into the food scene, it's a similar thing just realizing that we weren't there. Where where's our food? You know, I grew up with it all around me all the time. I grew up in Toronto, I moved to Brooklyn and then I moved to London, came back to Brooklyn. It's huge and yet on the bookshelves and in the magazines I wasn't seeing us represented. And I just think that our food is so exciting and dynamic and I always say it's the first fusion food in the world. Really I think it was so important that our stories are told and that we're represented.

Speaker 2: 5:07

And last but not least, Althea, let us know what brought you to your work in food.

Speaker 5: 5:12

Yeah, thanks for having me on Alexandria. So I grew up in Guyana, surrounded by my grandparents and in a multicultural family, and so we always, like Leslie said, had food everywhere around us. I grew up poor, but we were never short of food. Like food was the one thing that we always had. I moved to the US, I got married and then suddenly was living in the middle of America with no access to real good Guyanese food, so I had to rely on my mom's recipes for a lot of it. Like calling my mom and saying, hey, how do I make this? My husband is also Guyanese and wanted to have Guyanese food at home, and so I was like well, how do I make this and how do I make it to taste exactly like yours? And I started recording those recipes and sharing it, and it got a lot of traction. People were like thank you for recording this and measurements, Cause y'all know Caribbean people not measuring nothing. So that was the first like, hey, here's this guy and he's blogger, and she actually has a roti recipe that comes out right every time because she's measured out all the ingredients, and I think I got a lot of success.

Speaker 5: 6:15

Well, in 2016, I found out that I couldn't eat gluten anymore and I really didn't want to have my, like cultural identity stripped just because I could no longer enjoy gluten and, you know, dairy or refined sugar.

Speaker 5: 6:33

And how would I still enjoy these flavors that I know and love so much without feeling sick, you know?

Speaker 5: 6:55

And how can I tap into going back to the root of our food, which is whole grains, like ground provision and just using basic ingredients, but actually reimagining how we use those? In a way, not even reimagining Because my grandmother back in the day wasn't going to the store to buy a pocket of seasoning, get the seasoning, you know, like she was going to her kitchen garden and getting fresh herbs and making her little marinades and her curry paste and that kind of stuff. So really like going back to the root of that and starting from there and saying like, okay, how can I strip some of these things that have all these fillers out of my diet but still honor the intent of the dish and the flavors of the dish? And that's how Caribbean paleo was born and that's how I was able to bring that to the masses and found out that there were so many other people struggling with food sensitivities and allergies just like I was, and so was very successful in sort of bringing this new reimagined Caribbean flair to the paleo world Beautifully said.

Speaker 2: 7:50

Thank you so much for sharing all of that and just a bit more about yourselves with us. I want us to start off with, you know, an interesting point that can be contentious depending on who you ask. Right, we've talked about box food. We've talked about ground provisions, but what are some of the common misconceptions you all have heard about food? I think you know for one I've heard people share that all Caribbean food is the same right, which is something I'm sure we'll demystify in this conversation today. But for you, especially in your backgrounds, what are some of the things that you've heard in terms of what Caribbean food means? You know how it's prepared? Just the various things that you think are incorrect about who we are in our food culture.

Speaker 5: 8:35

So one of the things that really drives me crazy about that is this misconception that Caribbean food is unhealthy. Right, and even though my book is called Caribbean Paleo and the whole spin of it is like healthy Caribbean food, I think healthy is subjective. I think what's healthy for you might not be healthy for me, and I always say that, like, this is the food that fed all of the labor that built empires. So how can you tell me this food is not healthy? Like, how can you sit and watch me in my face and tell me that, oh, your food is unhealthy? I me, this food is not healthy. Like, how can you sit and watch me in my face and tell me that, oh, your food is unhealthy?

Speaker 5: 9:08

I think Caribbean food is extremely healthy. I do not agree that it's all the same. I think every country has their own spin. Even with Trini and Guyanese food that are very, very similar. We have different ingredients that we use that will signify that, like, oh, that's a Trinidadian person making that versus a Guyanese person. So I don't agree that it's all the same. And the biggest, like, my pet peeve is when people are like, oh, I need a healthy salad and like you could go eat some ground provision and steam fish, and that's very healthy, you know.

Speaker 3: 9:40

So, yeah, that's where I am yeah, and then you know, just to add to what you saying, and that's the reason why we are here as not just chefs or whatever, but as food bloggers, because back then, you know, there was no technology like that with internet, so persons can write on stuff or produce stuff. So we're here now to change all of that and to give information. And when you don't know where something is coming from, then you can't say about anything. But we, you know, born in it, so we understand it. And in terms of healthy, you know these food are more for the laborers, right? You're working in the field, you're outside, so they need yam, banana dumpling, they need artisan soup, not something puree. So when you understand all of that, then you'd understand why our food is the way it is. And then now we can. All our diets are all different. So once you understand that. So that's why we're here to teach. And it's healthy, it's healthy. Every food is healthy. There's nothing that's unhealthy. It's all about finding a right balance.

Speaker 4: 10:40

Yeah, I agree, I agree, and all of our food is the same. It's just so funny to me.

Speaker 4: 10:45

You know my book is basically around this misconception and going to different, all the different countries, and seeing the different ways which we have similar ingredients. Right, we all use the same not all the same things, but many of the same fundamental ingredients. But, like Althea was saying, we spice them differently, we prepare them differently, we put different combinations of things together and it comes out very different. I have a lot of experience with Haitian food. It's not anything close to Trinidadian food and I love that, but it's not the same. I also think that I think people are sort of intimidated by our food to cook it. I think they think that it's very complicated or there's always a lot of ingredients, because we like things to be flavorful, so we put lots of things in there, but it's not hard. Right, there is technique and there is knowledge that goes behind it, but it's not something that should scare anyone off from making it. It's accessible, I think.

Speaker 3: 11:44

And Caribbean food is not just spicy, it's no, true, true, true.

Speaker 5: 11:48

Yeah, people think they don't eat it because it's hot, yeah, and and I think, like, I think our food is complex, I think some of it is very simple and I think there are some techniques that are very complex.

Speaker 5: 12:00

But just like you would study and learn how to make kukavin, like you could still learn how to make metemji or some other kind of complicated thing a dal puri is a complicated thing to make, you know, um, but I think people don't want to put in the like effort and so they just dismiss it as like, oh, I don't know where to find the ingredients and I don't know how to do this. I spent all last week week with chefs in Portland and they were serving traditional Guyanese food and I was actually really impressed because some of the things that they found, some of the recipes they chose to make, were more indigenous or native recipes, and I was like, oh, where do you find it? And they're like oh, we read in the glossary that you said we can get it at an African market. So we went and got it and I think if people put in the effort, they will get the thing and they can find it and they can make Caribbean food.

Speaker 3: 12:51

So yeah, and the trick with our food is real and truly. It's not just from one particular culture, it's very diverse. So I think that's where sometimes the confusion comes in. So you know, our motto in Jamaica is out of many one people and all the people who came to the island brought their own food. So we have different technique and the truth is our food take lots of ingredients. We all cook with, you know, love, Scallion, thyme, garlic, ginger, pimento. That's a lot compared to say, the French might just do a little salt and pepper and a sear and your sauce, Everything is like more sauce for the French, but for us it's stews, it's long cooking, it's braising, and that's what set our cuisine really apart.

Speaker 2: 13:34

You guys have brought us to, you know the point of this episode really to tie in our history and how we've come to be as a people and how that's then reflected in our food. Right, we've talked a little bit about the mix of people, of who we are. Right, we are a region that has obviously, you know, been colonized but, you know, has had the legacies of enslaved Africans who were forcibly moved to the region right, of Asians who were indentured here, whether that be for the most part from India and from China. We also have a wealth of Middle Eastern populations Lebanese, you know. The list can go on to Noel's point about Jamaica's national model and all of these things I think are reflected in our food.

Speaker 2: 14:23

And so what are sort of some of the ways you see our history really being reflected in some of these things? I was really struck by the earlier point about Guyana and Trinidad having, you know, a lot of crossover, potentially right, but not exactly the same, and I think that is in large part due to, you know, the more so majority of indentured servants those countries got or received over, say, like a Jamaica right, I believe. At the last numbers I looked at, trinidad received four times as many Indian migrants than Jamaica did, and so obviously, those things like that are going to impact our food right. And so what are the major takeaways for you for some of these aspects of history showing to impact our food right? And so what are the major takeaways for you for some of these aspects of history showing up in our food culture?

Speaker 3: 15:49

All right. So what will happen is that the settlers it's all depend on where, as you said earlier, where majority settles and they of course have brought their food. So, like you know Guyana now they will have different spices. It comes down to the spices. For us in Jamaica it's more on the African side of things, not so much of the Indian, not so much of the Chinese.

Speaker 3: 16:10

We still have some of their food and stuff but it doesn't show straight out in our food itself. But we have the ingredients, like, for example, I'm making, say, a jerk chicken, say spring roll. Spring roll is not really a Jamaican thing but we still have that influence. So you know, to your question, it's more on where those settlers really settle that their cuisine based on, for example, in Trinidad you guys have the pillow right Then we would have what we call a seasoned rice and it's similar. They use pigeon peas, we don't. They use sugar, so the sugar in theirs give it that distinct taste. So the taste is what also separates us, based on the flavor profile and our background and stuff like that.

Speaker 5: 16:54

Yeah, I agree, I do believe that the movement of people through colonization severely impacted the region, right, particularly how they came. So what happened was, after the abolition of slavery, having to fill the slave force. When they reached out to india to like find indentured servants, which they also tricked into a new form of slavery, right, um, even though a lot of people feel like, oh, we weren't slaves, well, you kind of were. And so those ships came, dropped off a bunch of people in Guyana and then went to their next stop, which was Trinidad, and then went to their next stop. So that's why, guyana and Trinidad, our food looked so very, very similar. The other thing that the British did was they would give these people ration, right, they would give these Indians rations every month or every week and they had to cook from that.

Speaker 5: 17:48

So, whereas, like in India, you can have a hundred different types of curries with different combination of spices that are called different things, suddenly now you're given a ration and it's only turmeric and some cumin and you know, like some yellow spit peas and a couple other things, and you have to really make a meal out of that to feed your family or to feed yourself, and so then you start to see that people use things the same way. So that's why a?

Speaker 5: 18:14

curry in Trinidad will look so very similar to a curry in Guyana, but a little bit different to curry in Jamaica, because Jamaica is getting a sprinkling of Indians. And then maybe your neighbor is Indian and you're like what are you making? And then your neighbor's like I'm making this dish, I'm making curry goat. And then suddenly someone's like, oh, I want to make that too. And then you interpret it your own way and I see that in a lot of dishes that the further you get from sort of like the Guyana Trinidad belt here and go into other countries, the less you see things like garam masala and all of these other really Indian spices being used in curry dishes and that's what kind of makes it a little bit different. Trinidad has bandhania growing wild all over, so they start to use that in their dishes and that starts to change the flavor of their dishes. That's not an herb that I grew up using. That's not something that we grow in Guyana, you know, but we have we're very peppers, like the little round peppers, because it's native to South America, and suddenly that's what's going in our foods. I think those are the different things that happen and I love that. I love that A friend of mine just did a recipe for pakasa and she was like this is a real, like old school Jamaican recipe.

Speaker 5: 19:34

Well, guess what? That's actually metamg. That's a dish metamg, everything that she did. I was like, oh my God, that's metamg in Guyana. Thing that she did I was like, oh my God, that's met MG in Guyana. And it made me feel so good because that's an African dish. It means that, like, the Africans that ended up in Jamaica were not too different than the ones that ended up in Guyana, found themselves in a new space and was like I got to make this dish, but I got to make it with what I have available. And so in Jamaica they're doing something a little bit different than we're doing in Guyana, but it's the same dish and I just I love that about Caribbean food.

Speaker 4: 20:09

The things that bring us together. I was surprised to and I don't know how I didn't know this that in Martinique, guadalupe and Martinique there's a fair-sized Indian population. It's not obviously as big as Guyana or Trinidad, but it's enough that it affects the food. So, like chicken, colombo is one of their famous dishes and that's the curry, and that's because of the indentured servants, because the French were up to the same, you know the same shenanigans.

Speaker 5: 20:33

And the same thing in Suriname. Like I, through my blog, have figured out that, like Suriname, even though they're by the Dutch, had the same sort of movement of people and so their food looks almost exactly the same as Guyanese food. They call it differently and they make it slightly different, like some one and two things are a little bit different just based on what ingredients were available to them, but it's almost the same flavors and the same palate. And you're like huh, like we're our neighbors and we're so close that you would think that that would happen. But then it still surprised me when it did and this sort of stuff fascinates me if you guys can't tell Did you realize that most of the islands codfish is in their diet as well.

Speaker 3: 21:12

Is it in our diet as well? Saltfish? Yeah, and that's a wonderful dish with aki because they came at the same time and there are a few other islands that cod is present throughout your um, your cuisine I think saltfish is in every, is everywhere, all I mean it basically powered the whole thing.

Speaker 5: 21:31

It's how they preserve fish because they didn't have these refrigerators. Yeah, actually in guyana we don't use cod because we don't like a cod's not our main fish. We use a fish called bangamary. It's a white fish, but it's a white fish that's found abundantly in Guyana. So, like when I came to the US and I was trying to find saltfish, I was like what is this? This has a different texture than Bangamary, but you play around with it and you figure it out and then you're like OK, that's the same thing. But you know, we had the same sort of salting and the idea of salting fish, but just using a different type of fish.

Speaker 4: 22:03

It's interesting, though, because the cod like doesn't even come from the Caribbean.

Speaker 2: 22:07

It's like a northern fish.

Speaker 4: 22:09

But the, I think, the Brit well, all sorts of people started fishing for it. So that's interesting that in Guyana they're using something local.

Speaker 3: 22:16

Yeah, yes. So Jamaica was trading rum barrels with Newfoundland here in Canada, and that's what they would. So they were trading, so they would give them fish or rum barrels and, of course, some rum, and that is why rum is a national drink for newfoundland. And then then sawfish now it's part of our national dish.

Speaker 4: 22:36

It was a currency. It was. I mean yeah yeah yeah, stuff at the time.

Speaker 2: 22:41

And one that still continues. I've done the Appleton Rum Tour in St. Know ways that we evolve as a result. Right, talking about. You know having to move somewhere else and figure out how to make our dishes and replicate it, in a sense, or do the best we can. And you know Tanwe, hana, mikvashan, as they would say. Right, jerk, you know, for jamaica particularly, I think one that strikes me is not only adhering to our african, but also our indigenous influences as a way of not only you know it's seasoning, it's how you grill the food.

Speaker 2: 23:37

It's a whole, a whole myriad of things really, um, but one that is really steep in this tradition for maroons yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 23:46

So of course the maroon there, that's their food, right jerk. And so when they were up in the mountains, what they would do is they would dig a pit to get um, I think they use boar, not chicken or stuff like that. They use some boar, eggs and stuff, and and the thing about jerk is that it also preserve your meat as well. The spice level of spice that's in it and the amount of salt and all those stuff, so it preserved their meat, so they could season their meat and have it in buckets or whatever. And that's how we also have, like corn pork and all those corn stuff. Now, because of the salt, right.

Speaker 3: 24:15

So what they would do, because they're in a mountain, they would dig a pit, get their pork cooking over fire and smoking, and of course you have lots of pimento wood and that's how they get that smoky flavor from the pimento wood and they would cover that now with a zinc, so the smoke doesn't give them a way to say, hey, we are here cooking, we're having a cookout up here, come and get us. So that was part of it and that's how, you know, jerk burnt. But then, as time changed, now we use barbecue grill and some of us still use in the oven with the jerk spice. But if you use a jerk spice in the oven it's like a jerk marinated jerk chicken. It's not really jerk chicken, jerk chicken, you know, jerk marinated.

Speaker 5: 25:00

I tried to explain it to a chef once here and a white guy. He was like I'm making jerk chicken and he's like making it in the oven. And I was like, well, you know how to make jerk chicken. You gotta like put it over the pimento and you gotta do all this stuff. So just be careful with like how you're saying that and people don't get it. They just jerk has become so broad, like worldwide, that people forget the roots of it and how simple but also complicated jerk really was, you know.

Speaker 5: 25:32

But I I'm so glad that you said that, but like it's not necessarily that you're making jerk, yeah, so it's a jerk marinated.

Speaker 3: 25:39

And then for me, you know so, even last year I did something for Toronto international film festival and Caribbean cuisine and something I left them with. When you're eating our food, it's not just about getting a belly full or you're trying something. You're partaking in history. You're partaking in um, a rich, diverse um culture. So when you're eating different um caribbean island food, it will tell you a lot about the people, or food tell us a lot about um, or resilience, or love, and that's why it takes forever to cook, because that's love right there.

Speaker 3: 26:13

And when you see, or one pattern, all those stuff, it show you that these people had to be very creative and use what they have to make it work and make it into a meal.

Speaker 3: 26:22

And that is why we don't have, like you know, top round and prime rib and all these stuff in our cuisine, because we had to use what was left or what was given to us. So that's why we have the tails and the feet and the head and the offals and all this stuff and we make it into something um beautiful, even oxtail. I don't think we should take credit really for oxtail, um persons who are doing oxtail, but they were doing it differently into soups the irish and all those people but we make it into a brilliant braised stew which is now loved around the world. And that's and that's why sometimes jamaicans get in trouble on the internet because they say, oh, everything is jamaica, everything is jamaica. This jamaica, the island, does this too, but the thing is that's crazy, jimmy kansas does both full on right right, it's okay, like we all know for sure.

Speaker 2: 27:17

You raise a great point, noel. I think it's interesting to see how much particularly oxdale is raved over nowadays. Right, it's a thing on social media and people from different cultures will try to make ox tail and post it in all of these things. But you know how many are critically aware of that deep-rooted history that you were alluding to. Right, the enslaved were not getting the prime parts of the, the chicken or whatever. Right, the cow? There's reasons why we eat cow foot. There's reasons why we eat cow foot. There's reasons why we eat chicken foot soup. The list could go on.

Speaker 2: 27:51

The reason why we have maneshuata right, for those who may not be familiar, right, maneshuata is a soup that is pretty much made from all parts of the goat. That won't necessarily go beyond that, but can be from any part of the gold right. And it's because of this longer history of enslavement, of these sort of colonial um impositions and what you know was quote unquote left over. Yeah, for the masses, for that to say. You know, in terms of us continuing on this point of colonial powers, there are also foods that have been shaped by you know what, maybe britain or france, or you know the dutch, etc. We're making right um. So not just ways that our foods were influenced by um, those from africa, those from asia who moved here, but also those from the rum cake.

Speaker 2: 28:46

Those colonial powers right.

Speaker 3: 28:49

For sure. Black cake yeah, go for it. We have the patties as well. Asians have their style of patties and I know sometimes people get mixed up, like Jamaicans are the only one who do patties, but it's the same thing as empanada and all this stuff. The same. You know concept. And if you look across all cultures, not just caribbean, we all have similar food in terms of a rice dish, a dumpling and some form of pastry in terms of a patty.

Speaker 5: 29:13

yeah, that's true, yeah, and those things come from all those people who colonized us and then also the people that they brought when they needed to manage this labor force, manage their plantations and so on and so forth. Like in Guyana, we also have patties, and not like the Jamaican patties, they're more like a Scottish meat pie I believe they have a similar one in Trinidad as well, and we have a lot of pastries that use the same dough as that patty and, you know, different filling. And then you know, you think about all the tin fish that we eat, like tin mackerel sardines. That's from the Portuguese. Like the Portuguese are masters at canning fish and you know, when they came, also as indentured laborers, but on a higher level than you know in the Chinese, they brought those things with them.

Speaker 5: 30:09

The bread that we have in Guyana is directly from the Portuguese as well. They're like braided bread. I recently found out that there might also be some Jewish influences in that bread, because the Jewish like influenced Portugal heavily, and so whenever I do any sort of like that braided plat bread, all the Jewish people come and I guess it's challah bread. It's challah bread. I'm like no, it looks like it is, but it's our bread. We don't put eggs in it. It's very different and you think about that too, that maybe it started out with eggs. But how many people in their everyday baking can put five, six eggs in a loaf of bread to make a loaf of bread? So then they start eliminating certain ingredients and changing their technique a little bit to get it to the same softness and the same fluffiness as a haul. So I don't doubt that maybe it started out that way, but that's not what it is right now, and that's OK, because food changes over time, depending on where you are, the available ingredients and generation to, generation to.

Speaker 5: 31:11

Yeah, and I say that all the time. So I make coconut drops, right. So you know, coconut drops are usually with raisins and all this kind of stuff, right. And I don't like raisins so I don't put raisins in mine. Like raisins, so I don't put raisins in mine.

Speaker 5: 31:29

And I keep telling people, my children will tell people that these things don't have raisins because they've never had them with raisins. And now I've changed that for a whole generation in my family, you know, and they'll be like well, my mom was a famous guy in Isha, so she knows. And, right, like you could, I could see it happening. So every now and again I have to be like, just so you know, these also have raisins and cherries and nuts and whatever the hell you want to put in it. But that's how things change. Like maybe your ancestor didn't have access to an ingredient or didn't like the taste of it and then they changed that dish completely, you know and we're traveling now as well, and our palates are also changing as well yeah yeah, we're fusing yeah I think too for colonized well, the colonizers.

Speaker 4: 32:09

The one thing porridge is so big for all of us um, you know, cornmeal porridge, plantain porridge, all the porridges and I think that that is definitely a west african influence. But I think also for the people the lower rung of the europeans came, like Irish people, for instance, there were loads of Irish people in Trinidad. My mother's maiden name was Kelly and they also were eating porridge. You know it was the people that did not have. You can't see me doing air quotes, but I think that was a combination, it becoming such a big thing in the Caribbean of these two groups coming together.

Speaker 5: 32:44

Yeah, no for sure.

Speaker 3: 32:47

The Jamaican Turn Corn Meal is the next big one. We call it the Turn Corn Meal because of the technique. So we keep on stirring and stirring, so we just say Turn Corn Meal. And I realize that most of our dishes don't have a correct name or a proper name. It's based on the techniques. So, like drops, we drop it Gizzard, because you know, and then then in the next island you'll have the same thing with a different um name, and that's beautiful yeah, and and turn caramel.

Speaker 5: 33:14

Is polenta right, so yeah and like if, if you were jamaican, you went to a restaurant, you saw plenty, like, what is this? I'm not ordering that. And then it comes out.

Speaker 3: 33:22

You're like, oh, it's torn caramel with the um pigeon peas in it. There's one of the pigeon peas in it. There's a next island, I think as it, but it's a different name. Cuckoo yeah, cuckoo yeah that sounds good.

Speaker 4: 33:34

I haven't seen cuckoo with pigeon peas oh yeah, I've seen a few.

Speaker 3: 33:36

Yeah, okra and the pigeon peas. I've seen okra.

Speaker 2: 33:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah we're beautifully talking about ingredients here, which I think is another part of the way that there's just so much variety in the region. Right, there are several things that we all make or have similar versions of, but they might be prepared differently. You know, we might put turmeric in our patti in Jamaica and might not be that way in somewhere else. Or you know, an empanada sometimes are fried, whereas you know Jamaica will bake them. You know all of these intricacies. So what are some of your favorite? You know ingredients that you know are shaped a little bit differently in another island or territory. Well, I love.

Speaker 4: 34:20

we were talking about saltfish earlier. I love, I love saltfish. I love it. I love every like iteration of it. I love every way that it shows up. You know, in Trinidad, I think among these three nations, we probably make it pretty similarly. In Haiti, it's more saucy and they put cloves in it. It's good. Um, in Puerto Rico it's also, it's saucier and they use a lot of green peppers, which we don't use as much, and that's also really good, and they have the, you know, the Raquel, and it's also really delicious there. There's some Spanish saying. They say in Puerto Rico, about the many faces of saltfish, how she wears many faces because of all the women that found all these different ways to make it taste different every day, because this is what we had. This is what we're working with. We're eating the same foods over and over.

Speaker 5: 35:10

We have to make it, you know, still make it tasty, still make it exciting. So I do. I love saltfish. Yeah, I think saltfish is a good one, right, because we all make it. And, like you're saying, like in Puerto Rico, they make the bacalitos and they're like fish cakes, right, are like fritters, and some people make it crispy and thin and some people make it a little thicker, and I think the same thing with us, like in Guyana, we make soft fish cakes and it's more of not so much a fritter as it is like a croquette, so it's more like with potatoes and like shape. Sometimes we shape it in a log shape or might shape it in a ball and then we fry it and, uh, it's a little bit spicy and sometimes we eat it with a chutney and it's really, really good.

Speaker 5: 35:47

And then I think in jamaica they make um fritters, right, saltfish fritters and so it's a little bit more doughy and and yeah, and soft and and a little bit crunchy, and and I think somehow, however, that that one ingredient came to us. Besides us all sauteing it and putting it with um, with Aki or Guyanese people just sauteing it just like that and stuffing it into bakes Um, we also figured out that we can do all these other things with it. You know, we could put it in a soup, Like in Guyana we use saltfish as a main protein in a lot of dishes, Like there's saltfish and okra, like fried up Saltfish and bora and saltfish and calla lip, Like whatever your heart desires. Even put it in rice, Like we'll make a cook up rice and you'll put saltfish in it because that's the thing you had on hand.

Speaker 5: 36:37

And people get angry at me when I say it's poor people food right, Because you know not having any other kind of protein. You made it work and that's the beautiful thing about it. Like your grandmother is not going to be like oh, I don't have beef in the fridge, Let me go to the supermarket. She's like let me see what else I got. Okay, now I'm going to put sawfish in this dish and that's what happened.

Speaker 3: 36:58

I love, love that about how our food changes and how you know things evolve yeah, I can definitely say for me, um, which you know, a key ingredient I'll definitely say is love. I think when you see you know grandma making that soup all day saturday, that rice and peas start from saturday night, that peas soaking the technique alone, it's so much love and I think that's why we are now inspired to become chefs and maybe food writers and bloggers and authors, because we also want to capture this story, because for us, really, we didn't have much information on the internet. It's now that we start doing podcasting and writing and doing all this stuff. We have all this info and there was no measurement to nothing. That you do. You cook from the heart, right, you cook with love and that's love. When you just measure, you cook to taste. So definitely and it's spread right across the Caribbean is that the first ingredient that we all use is love for what we do and our culture.

Speaker 5: 37:58

That's a good one Can't be better. I see good one Can't be bad. I always say a little prayer.

Speaker 3: 38:06

I always cover my pot and say a little prayer. While I was doing food and nutrition in high school, I was trying to impress my grandma to cook for her, and I cook very fast. You know we do demo for 30 minutes and 45 minutes, so we got to cook fast. So when I cook and I share mine, she's like oh look, put my one in the pot and let it stay and simmer some more. That's my grandma. Turn it down low. They don't take anything. With cornstarch and water it naturally thickens with potato and all these stuff. Yeah, it's time and that's where I get off my um. You know skills and also mindset when it comes on to approaching um or food.

Speaker 5: 38:40

Yeah, I think you're right. I think that, like that's the love and the time and they weren't rushing to do anything and you know, it's like I'm just gonna do this.

Speaker 5: 38:48

I'll start early yeah yeah, I shared a dish recently shine rice. It's a very, very simple. It's just coconut milk and rice at its simplicity. Like that's it coconut milk and rice. And then people add other things into it. Right, well, now people want to make it fancy, that and all sorts of stuff. And I'm like, well, that's it coconut milk and rice. And then people add other things into it. Right, well, now people want to make a fancy net and all sorts of stuff. And I'm like, well, that's not, it's not the same dish.

Speaker 5: 39:09

And I asked my aunt because I remember my grandmother making it and I was trying to make it and I couldn't get it to taste like hers. And I said, what? What was granny doing now? And my aunt was like she boiled that coconut milk for hours until the fat separated before she put in the rice. And I was like a rice dish that's gonna be more than 30 minutes, it's gonna be hard, right, but the minute I did it, the minute I was like, hey, this is gonna take some time, you really want to develop the flavors. And once I let it boil and do that, it was perfect, like perfect, perfect. And I was like you know what? I'm not dummying it down, I'm gonna share it, and those who want to put in the effort will get some deliciousness, those who don't. Too bad, you know. And so you're right. It's just they did put in that effort and they did take that time and they really put a lot of love into everything that they did that's what makes what it is today.

Speaker 3: 40:00

And even same thing with run dung we call run dung, I think, with aisle dung or something like that. And it's the same thing. It's not just fish with coconut milk. It has to be that texture, has to be thick, it has to be creamy.

Speaker 4: 40:12

You get that right and it can break as well, right yeah, in the in my book I frequently just say like, don't worry, you'll get there, you'll know when it's coming, just be patient it'll happen. Don't give up. I'm making that rice now, me too we've shared?

Speaker 2: 40:33

um definitely some recipes, some amazing meals. You know this is a little bit of my take on our standard, strictly facts um question, but what are some of your favorite examples of delicacies from either your island or nation or territory, or another one even, and how it shows up in our culture?

Speaker 3: 40:55

I'd like to say for me, I guess jerk is showing up everywhere now. National television on the Food Network, it's showing up in supermarket. I see pre the Food Network it's showing up in supermarket. I see pre-packaged season with jerk. Everywhere is jerk. This jerk, that, and you know to see where it's coming from, the Little Rock called Jamaica, to where it's at now, and it's so versatile as well. It's versatile and all those ingredients also tells the story of the island that the people they're definitely bold, they're spicy. Don't cross them, they'll burn. You know, yeah, captures. You know we are, as a people, vibrant, yeah, so it's jerk for me, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 5: 41:39

I was going to say Pepper Pot, because I have the same response as you do about jerk. Right, like Pepper Pot is our national dish and for a while, like nobody knew about it, only Guyanese people and only Guyanese people were making it, and the main ingredient, like the thing that you really need is casrip, which you can only find in Guyana. I mean, there are lots of casrip on the Internet that are just not casrip. It's very expensive to make, and so there are lots of fillers so you don't get the same experience. You know, and I don't want to gate, keep pepper pot, but I feel like I should like. Sometimes I'm like please don't mess this up for us, like don't ruin it. And you know, understand that this is a dish, kind of like how jerk comes from the maroons, like this comes from our indigenous people, and we've been honoring them for centuries by making it very similar to how they make it.

Speaker 5: 42:28

There's several versions of Pepper Pot. The most popular one is this, one that we make at Christmas time with the dark sauce, and I get a little aggravated and a little angry when I see large platforms making it and they're not making it the way that it's intended to be made when they feel like, oh, I can put my spin on it and you can see the thought process right, because it's described as a stew. But it's really rich and complex. It's a stew that has a little bitterness from the cassava. It has cinnamon and cloves, a little sweetness, a little spice. It's hard, if you've never had an authentic original version of it, to really replicate it, because you don't know what you're looking for and so you know. I feel proud when I see people honoring it in a good way and they're like hey, I got a recipe, I made it, I really took the steps to learn it and figure it out.

Speaker 5: 43:20

But then I feel like angry when I'm like no, that's not how you make it and there's so many guyanese people out here making it that you shouldn't have gotten it wrong. You know like there's no, it's everywhere now and you shouldn't have gotten wrong. Like red flag, right, our target. Like um, they made a pepper pot in a jar sauce, right, and guyanese people lost their mind. They're like we don't put pepper pots in a jar and for me I was like wait a minute.

Speaker 5: 43:46

Actually, that's a great idea for people who are not really in a place where they can get casrip, but what's in it? And when you read the ingredients, like it doesn't even have casrip. It has all the stuff for like a typical stew. It has like cornstarch and all this kind of stuff and you're like, okay, the idea is right, but the execution is not right.

Speaker 5: 44:05

You know, like how can we again? Maybe you should have partnered with someone who's Guyanese. That could actually taste it and be like no, you got that wrong. And I feel like that's where sometimes it's hard, because I am a creator who's putting my food out there for the world to see it and I do want it to become popular and I do want people to know that, like in Guyana, we have our cuisine and we have these dishes that we love dearly and we also get the like oh, you're copying this person. We're not. We just happen to have the same heritage. So some things look the same and I do want to keep telling that story, but sometimes I feel like hiding it away.

Speaker 5: 44:41

I mean like, no, like, let's keep this for ourselves. And it's so hard. It's a hard kind of place to be, where you're like I want to get it out there and I want people to know about this, but I also want you to get it right. You know, yeah.

Speaker 4: 44:55

It's similar to what happened with do you remember when Samuelson did the soup jumeau?

Speaker 3: 45:00

I remember that going on.

Speaker 4: 45:07

They fl flagged him. He made a perfectly lovely like pumpkin soup, but it was not soup, jumeau, and you know this is something that's really important, much like pepper pot it's. It's very important, you know, to the people and at least to acknowledge. Acknowledge that if you're, if you have to mess with it, which you shouldn't acknowledge, that that's what you're doing. Yeah, this is not traditional. You know, my Guyanese neighbor shared her pepper pot recipe with me, so I and that was very special, and even just her pride in talking me through it yeah, like it was. And pepper pot is not like anything real. The proper cause, I think other people there's, other islands that make things called pepper pot, but guyanese one is not like anything. Yeah, I've ever tasted anywhere else and it is like an acquired taste.

Speaker 5: 45:51

So I don't know why everybody's trying to make it, because it's not like. It's not like I wouldn't make if I had people come into my house for the first time and they were like, make me some guyanese food. Pepper pot is not the thing I'm going to make, because I'm like this is going to waste my food because it's such an acquired taste. And we know that like and you have to do it with bread and like- all this stuff right. So yeah.

Speaker 3: 46:12

And, as I said earlier, when you're partaking in Caribbean food, you're not just partaking in just for a belly fuller, so feel your crave. You're partaking in tradition and this is all we have is what was given to us. We ran with it and we'll make it into something. So when we see people trying, especially with the big platforms, it pisses me off. If you're trying, fine, I see a blogger doing something, or you know, just a regular person. It's different when I saw what's his see a blogger doing something, or you know, just a regular person. It's different when I saw what's his name in England was doing Pungi Jerk Rice. Yeah, that guy in England.

Speaker 5: 46:54

Yeah, the chef.

Speaker 3: 46:56

And then recently I saw Chef Carla. All you know who I love dearly. Her new show is called um chasing flavors and she's featuring different cuisine and a story behind it. So I saw her did this thing with a earthy kind of jamaican patty, with a phyllo dough and some pork that she cooked in it and then she brushed it with some curry oil and bake it. That is wrong. Or people didn't fight for that or people didn't die for that, you know. So if you're going to show the world a next, I'm not because you're black. I mean you're entitled to share a black cuisine or culture. Because you're black, you're not even like, you're not even welcome to do that.

Speaker 5: 47:36

Please say that again. Yeah, that's what they think. They think that like so you can't attack me, yeah first time I was doing.

Speaker 3: 47:44

I was doing something for Toronto, the city of Toronto, and they wanted a pillow. I was nervous, nervous, nervous. I have seen threats in my culture but I feel like, oh, I'm stepping into someone else's culture. And I did some research, you know, from popular Trinidadian chefs. I even go to Caribbean pot and I'm like, what am I doing? How is it? Because I just don't want to step on anyone because that's theirs. We should respect food and its culture. It's culture, it's our identity, it's what we have.

Speaker 5: 48:13

I think that what you're saying is very important that just because you're from a Caribbean country doesn't mean that you have rights to other Caribbean dishes. Like just because I'm Guyanese and I slap Caribbean on there, I'm going to go fill my blog with Trini recipes and this recipe and that recipe and then be like yeah, I'm the expert in this thing. Even in my book I have some things that are like play on Jamaican things and I say very clearly some things that are like play on Jamaican things. And I say very clearly this is not a Jamaican recipe. This is my interpretation of a flavor that I've had, going to like a Jamaican restaurant in New York, or my friend's trini, and she loves sawfish, bull jewels. So here's this is my interpretation of it.

Speaker 5: 48:58

Like we don't have rights to these things because we didn't grow up in those cultures like making it and there's so many people from those countries that could do a better job out there and the part where you were like just because you're black doesn't mean you have rights to like Caribbean food.

Speaker 5: 49:16

I agree, like the I don't know if you guys are following me when I like lost my shit on this lady who, like did Pepper Pot and decided she was going to put corn starch in it and all this guy's stuff. I was a black woman and she's out there like making all of these Caribbean recipes. She's from the South in America, like she's American. She has no Caribbean heritage, no Caribbean roots, and here she is like bastardizing pepper pot. And you know I was like you have no right to this or to this recipe and you know New York Times cooking should have done their research, yeah, and know that actually what you put together here doesn't even work as a recipe for stew, like it was nasty and and just terrible. And you know, like I think that people in these like big, big platforms they check a box Like oh yeah, it's a person of color and so they're going to be more received than anyone else. Well, no, we're not.

Speaker 3: 50:11

Food is culture.

Speaker 5: 50:11

Yeah, food is culture, we're not doing that, and you know what we're not doing. We're not in this mindset of like. Well, at least they featured Pepper Pot, no, no no If you're not going to do it right. Don't do it, Just don't do it.

Speaker 3: 50:22

It's culture, you know, and it's near and dear to us. So I think at least reach out to a chef, get the proper recipe, at least.

Speaker 4: 50:30

Yeah, I don't. When I was doing my book because it is a pan-Caribbean cookbook, because it's focused on these ingredients and I was really worried about that because, no, I'm not an expert, like I am. Trinidad food I got this Haitian food. Now I've got this Because I made Haitian rice and beans for Haitian once and they thought it was from a Haitian restaurant, nice. But in doing this book, I mean, almost all of my time was spent researching and talking to chefs and aunties and grandmothers and mothers and you know, and going into kitchens and speaking with them and, like they're quoted in the books, and I actually just paid, you know, soup. I wasn't messing with it, I got a Haitian chef to do. I'm not messing with it and like pepper pot?

Speaker 4: 51:14

Talk to me, Miss BB, because I'm not going to make my own pepper pot recipe. If I can do that the New York Times could certainly.

Speaker 3: 51:21

Yeah, If I can do that the New York Times could? Certainly. Yeah, no, it's true, and it burned me Like when it's all these bigger platforms, always a food network, always New York Times, always these big platform, or even these big chefs. One time I turned on a gig. They wanted me to do jollof rice. I've never been to Africa, I've never been to Nigeria. I don't really consume jollof rice, to be honest, than, like I think one time. I'm not even sure if that was even correct and they don't get that like this is from a different continent.

Speaker 5: 51:48

Now they don't, because he's a black man and he won't have eaten and know how to make I make food, but but they do that all the time. I just did um a thing for food network and they wanted it to be for carnival and I said hey, guess what? We don't actually really have Carnival in Guyana. We have Mash Romani and I said I'll do it, I'll do a dish that we do at Mash Romani and I'll talk about that, but just know that it's not the Trinidad Carnival.

Speaker 5: 52:15

That's a whole different thing and I felt good that I was able to stand on that and say, if you still want it go through Mastromani. Like that's our little, you know, not very little compared to Trinidad Carnival. And they were like, okay, yeah, we'll take that. But I think some people become afraid and they don't want to lose out on the gig, right? Like, oh, I'm getting paid for it. Okay, let me go Google Jalaf and I'll make something I won't feel comfortable.

Speaker 2: 52:44

There's a keen respect that we all must operate from. I think is the overarching point. I'm getting right. Not only should people respect our foods in the same way, but we also owe it to one another and, of course, other cultures outside of the Caribbean. Would they question how an Italian dish is prepared?

Speaker 3: 53:06

You know what I mean. And they're so prideful. Italians are so prideful with their pastas, you realize it. It's always fresh and always showcasing it, and it's guarded.

Speaker 5: 53:14

Yeah, and it's actually from China, right, like there's actual evidence that noodles originated in China, and you know and you're like okay, but the thing is that's what I said, like when I wrote to the person at New York Times cooking. I said imagine that someone made a Pillsbury crescent roll and said look at my delicious croissant. Like French people would lose their mind. So why is it that I can't object to you not doing my country's dish justice? Like, why is that the standard? Why is that the bar?

Speaker 2: 53:50

you know, and you know he had some passive, aggressive response, but yeah, Well, I feel like this conversation could continue and definitely will continue, because you know we've only really really specifically touched on three islands, right or nations we could continue on a different set of nations and see how our conversation goes from there. But I guess, as a final question, what is one thing you know, you all are food lovers, are experts, are authors, right. What is one thing you hope all people recognize about Caribbean cuisine in our food culture?

Speaker 4: 54:30

just the the beauty of it, the complexity, all of this history that goes into making it. I don't think that people know that this whole conversation, I don't think people know that this is what's behind this cuisine. I think it's actually really important on so many levels culturally in the world to know about it and talk about it.

Speaker 3: 54:50

So yeah, so what I want them to know is that Caribbean food is soul food and Caribbean food is comfort food. Not just American cuisine is soul food. Food. Fried chicken waffle is not just soul food or food. Um, it comes from the soul, of course, and it what you know, even being here in um canada some days. All you need is us, you know some jerk chicken. All you need is some oxalate, a mood change. You're good again. Right, you need something um spicy you. So our food is soul food. Someone rushed me on YouTube recently where I did a TV presentation and I talk about Afro-Caribbean soul food. So that's what I want them to know that when you see us saying soul food, it is soul food.

Speaker 5: 55:37

Yeah, I think for me, the one thing that I've been working hard on is demystifying this. Like Caribbean food is unhealthy thing, and I think I that's that's what I want people to understand that, like, our food is healthy and that if you want to go on a diet to lose weight, you can eat Caribbean food every day. You just have to manage your portions and the things that doesn't work for you. It doesn't have to be a sheet pan meal and a salad, you know. It doesn't have to be chicken breast and you know quinoa, it could be rice and peas and it could be chicken stew and all these things. It just depends on you know you as a person and how much protein you're getting and all these other things that you know make people lose weight or have a balanced diet.

Speaker 5: 56:22

And you know, before moving to America, that was the food we were eating every single day. So there's no way you can tell me that, oh, your food's unhealthy, like, change your whole diet and eat differently. And in fact, I do feel like, based on where you are in the world and where your genetic makeup is, you ought to be eating certain things you know. And so, yeah, that's my little thing, just that. Caribbean food is as healthy as any other diet and absolutely more flavorful and tasty.

Speaker 2: 56:52

Thank you so much for sharing those beautiful points. Just to reiterate that our food is so much of who we are, something that deserves respect, something that comes from our deep-rooted histories that people don't always realize, one that's evolved, of course, because we are a region of migration right, whether it's to the global north or to other parts of the world. These are all things that impact our food, our food histories and how it's prepared, but it is something that I think makes us very unique in who we are, and I'm so grateful again to you all Athea, noelle and Leslie for sharing with me and sharing with our guests, of course, and for our Strictly Facts family tuning in. I'm hoping it didn't make you too hungry. These are some amazing, amazing people.

Speaker 2: 57:43

I'll make sure to include the links to all of the blog posts, the cookbooks, the fellow podcasts. These are people who are working hard and discussing our food in such a generative way that I hope you also continue to check out and learn from them as well if you are further interested in learning about Caribbean food histories. And so, with that, I hope you all enjoyed this episode. Until next time, look more.

Speaker 1: 58:09

Thanks for tuning in to Strictly Facts. Visit strictlyfactspodcastcom for more information from each episode. Follow us at Strictly Facts Pod on Instagram and Facebook and at Strictly Facts PD on Twitter.